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Naseeb Blog Connecting Muslims across the world

17Aug/06

Arranged Divorce

He an alcoholic but won't admit it

I have a friend who's married & really loves her husband. He's been unable to support her & the kids without aid of friends & loans from family/friends & he's an alcoholic, won't admit it & he openly drinks daily. He says he loves her, but discusses things with her all the time & says "when we get divorced".

He said she should find someone else who could take better care of

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her & he even tried to set her up with 1 of her ex-flames from before they were married!!! I can't even touch this! I've been friends with her 10+ years & lots of people come to me for advice, so naturally she did too.

The problem is I've seen people give advice & then when the person asking for the advice doesn't follow it & things get worse, or they do follow it & then end up going back into the situation - it always backfires on the one who gave the advice and you end up losing a friend. I told her I wasn't touching this but that I'd ask around Naseeb and see what ya'll think?

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Ayesha

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  1. LiL_Shazia
    August 26, 2006 5:50pm

    No offense but for him to try and pimp her out by dragging one of her ex flame's for the purpose of ending his marriage shows that he's not interested in making things work. That and he's bitter....for him to do such a disrespectful thing, and not realized the worth and value of his family shows me that he doesn't care and is not concerned about their well-being. Fathers/husbands like that don't deserve the kindness of family and friends until they show they are changing for the better. till he does show some type of change i say leave him in the dust.

  2. onekhadijahere
    August 17, 2006 10:17pm

    Best advice is seek counseling! All must go, the drinker, the wife, the kids. Each has issues to resolve related to this "family" problem. I expect money is an issue so seek guidance from an Imam on low cost counseling in Georgia and start slow. It is amazing how a few visits can bring clarity when well meaning family and friends have brought only confusion. It is important to save all parties (regardless of divorce) so that they can be healthy, functioning adults, children in the future. So before making any concrete plans to stay in the marriage or leave the marriage, seek counseling to put the "issues" on the table. There are many. Deal with one at a time until there is a concensus. Most men who are depressed feel that the only way out is divorce, but are pleasantly surprised to learn there are a multitude of other options. Most women who are fearful of being alone with children remain in damaging marriages and feel trapped, unaware that there are again a multitude of other solutions. A good, Muslim counselor, can shed some light on an otherwise dim and dismal situation. The children deserve two healthy parents, regardless of whether they remain married or not. Do it for the children. Tracy (onekhadijahere).

  3. attorney786
    August 17, 2006 8:20am

    Sounds to me like a self-esteem/self-sonfidence issue. This guy is stuck in a cycle of depression and self-pity from which he is unable or unwilling to break free. He's wallowing in despair feeling sorry for himself and lamenting his "misfortune" and the "hand he's been dealt." The issue here is that leaving him would only reaffirm and further his feelings. A divorce would be the worst thing to do here, because she still loves him and a divorce would further his downward spiral by confirming his suspicions that his life is a failure. Unfortunately, the best option here is also the toughest, most difficult route. He is definitely in need of an intervention and intensive counseling. He needs help in opening his eyes and realizing that his life is well within his control, and that he can turn things around if he understands this. He needs to be motivated, encouraged, and inspired. I don't know what his educational or professional backgrounds are, but regardless of the situation, he can improve his family's condition by focusing and working hard, earning respect not just from others, but especially from himself. It'll take a lot of effort, hard work, tough love, and patience on his wife's part, but in the end, InshAllah, it should pay off and really turn their lives around.

  4. PezDispenser
    August 17, 2006 8:45am

    I think deep down the wife knows what is the best option to make sure her kids can grow up in a safe, healthy environment where the kids still have a healthy relationship with their father......

  5. ExoticNeurotic
    August 17, 2006 8:46am

    Salaams, Sounds like sound advice to me! (Attorney786). Divorce is the last resort but it sounds like this guy has issues! If your friend is presevering and loves him like you say she does, and doesn't want anyone else, than perhaps she can help him turn himself around. The only thing is does he want to be the better man? He sounds like he's not really pushing to change what with trying to fix her up with someone else!!!! Any husband worth his salt would not even go there, i'm a bit concerned he doesn't feel the same way towards her as she does towards him, or maybe his beer goggles are on so much he's confused. If he doesn't want to change and is talking and taking the easy option- ie divorce-she must ask herself if she's equal to the task. It can only be done if he's willing to do it. I would seriously reckon she should think long and hard about it, it sounds like he's not really responsible (the loans, alcoholism)and he likes to indulge himself. He turned to the "easy" option of divorce himself, he's obviously not someone who likes the hard work and discipline it takes to make something work as well as trying to push her off onto someone else!!! Habits of a lifetime as well as character compulsions can be verrrrry hard to break. I don't promote divorce but this guy sounds like he is only out for himself and not a responsible or committed person. Allah knows best but actions speak louder than words!!

  6. salt22207
    August 17, 2006 8:54am

    I think this should go in the best-of-vibes category. Move over Paris Hilton!

  7. Ayesha72
    August 17, 2006 9:20am

    In so few words that Naseeb allows you I guess I couldn't make it clear enough - he doesn't want to change at all and refuses to give up the alcohol. In an email today she said just last night he got in an arguement with her after being intimate and said her sex drive was nothing but trouble. She said she made a comment along the lines of "other husbands would love to have their wife never refuse them" and he just started accusing her of cheating on him while he had been away visiting family for a few months which was well over 6 months ago. As I recall she was so busy while he was gine she barely even talked to me unless it was on her celly on the way to and from work. She had a brand new baby and had to support the family on her own while he was gone, where could she have found the time even? I just can't tell her anything because I am as double minded about this as she is. He is one of the nicest, sweetest people you will ever meet, but when he is drunk he makes awful allegations and calls her names with no reason at all. I've been there and seen it, he doesn't even curb his tongue in front of friends or close family members. No provocation required, he'll just start in on her till she is in tears sometimes. From what I have seen he is a very loving and caring father to his kids, but how does drinking in front of them go with that? They are a muslim family, though he is non practicing and lately even started saying islam is a bunch of b$. I am so scared to give an opinion of my own on this either way, I've known them both so long. Last night I could barely sleep wondering how someone even begins to deal with something like that?

  8. uzma03
    August 17, 2006 9:58am

    Alcoholism is a serious disease. Almost 40 percent of adults with alcohol abuse or dependence also have a coexisting mental disorder, such as anxiety, antisocial personality, and other mood disorders. They are also prone to other drug abuse or dependence and cigarette smoking. The unfortunate thing about this disease is that alcoholics do realize they need help - however, they only realize this once they have already hit rock-bottom (ie. monetary debt, separation or divorce, unemployment, homeless). As is the case with obesity these days, SELF-MOTIVATION is the only way to overcome the hurdle. The trigger that motivates alcoholics seems to be the final realization that they have lost everything, at which point they usually are WILLING to seek help (ie. Alcoholics Anonymous, et cetera). It seems your friend may have come type of codependent personality disorder, which is usually the case with alcohlic's spouses, which is why they put up with what they do and for so long. However, a separation may be in order (I am NOT advocating divorce) until he can get help. Also, it really is unhealthy for the children to be in an environment full of disconcord. Your friend may also benefit from services such as Al-Anon (for family members of alcoholics). This is an extrememly difficult situation for both parties. But your friend really is going to have to put her foot down. He clearly isn't realzing he has a problem on his own (ie. he's already in debt and still continues to drink). The National Institute of Health has information about alcoholism as well. See link alcoholism.about.com. Good luck and best wishes.

  9. PezDispenser
    August 17, 2006 10:11am

    It's one thing to ask for advise for yourself, but it is entirely a different story to air her laundry out to dry in an online forum.... I really hope naseeb takes this off - as it is really none of our buisness.... She is able and can ask for help if she needs it, you can also go through proper channels to ask for help for her... But this setting is not going to help her, it will just create gossip....

  10. sam77
    August 17, 2006 11:34am

    First of all, I agree with Bleeachs comment. When Muslims get married, they often have not had a chance before marriage to really develop the foundations for a strong relationship so they should use the first few months to a year to strengthen their own relationship before they decided to bring a life into this world together. BUt alas,what is done is done.......time to move onto the real issue now, I knew a guy who was severly depressed because he hadn't accomplished much in life career wise. Being Pakistani and not being 'rich' or highly educated unfortunately means you don't get much as in potential brides coming your way, so he became even more depressed because of lonliness. He resorted to drinking, smoking and staying up all night chatting on online with strangers. Taking such people to a psychologist or giving them anti-depressants won't help. You need to tackle the underlining issue which is depressing them. This would be the WORST time for your friend to leave her husband. From the information you have provided us, I can not deduce why your friends husband should be depressed because he has a loving wife and chidren!! He should be taken on a one-week trip to the slums in Africa and maybe once he sees the poverty some people live in, he will snap out of his depression and realize how grateful he should be for all that he has. Either way........ your friend needs to get to the bottom of why her husband drinks and is depressed. That is the only way to start solving the problem.

  11. attorney786
    August 17, 2006 11:35am

    I suggest that along with the intervention I recommended earlier, that the wife (or someone else) keep a camcorder handy. Each time he gets drunk and has an outbreak, videotape it. After 2 or 3 episodes of this behavior, sit down with him when he is sober and have him watch the tapes. Many people who behave this way don't realize or truly understand how they become and the affect it has on others. This tactic has worked on other people with similar problems, so perhaps it will work here. Uzma03 - With all due respect, I don't subscribe to the notion that alcoholism is a disease. We are not born with it, it is not communicable, and it's not a progressive development. Alcoholism is a choice. Albeit an extremely difficult one for many, it is still a choice. You said that "Almost 40 percent of adults with alcohol abuse or dependence also have a coexisting mental disorder, such as anxiety, antisocial personality, and other mood disorders. They are also prone to other drug abuse or dependence and cigarette smoking." The addiction to alcohol is how they chose to deal with the existing disorders. Alcoholism was not the cause or result of these disorders. It was the choice those people made in how to deal with their problems. Individuals with anxiety, antisocial personality, and other mood disorders may be more prone to becoming addicted, but again, the addiction is a choice not a disease. Calling alcoholism a disease is a cop out that grants a person a license to a "victim mentality."

  12. amir911
    August 17, 2006 11:46am

    I think we all have that 'one friend' for whom we always need help.

  13. sobiaali
    August 17, 2006 12:17pm

    why doesnt she work and support him financially till he is stable again?

  14. Tounuscan
    August 17, 2006 2:31pm

    sister ayesha, U must realize by this times that the problem lay on the one who make it. Do no judge the dirt by Topsoil and get to root of worrys.. The sister have hard times to handle this and it a good thing. Gonna be very worry for Umaah if they have easy times with it. No gonna say no thing on the man to drink, u hear much of this in other response. Problem to be that the woman really love the husband but the husband wanna divorce for lack of finance to care for the family. It no a true arranged divorce.. It gonna turn to be more a devised divorce, where the male give the woman her chance out of the nikaah. Male is male and no thing to do on it. We all maked the mistook and male gonna make he share also. More troubles down the road if this male do no get the divorce he seek now.. He gonna make other plans for divorce to co-erce the female to see she need seek other. Soon, maybes, he gonna get violent. They have be many other case of this to happen also. Specials with religion as neither party wanna be first to ask for divorce for fear of Allah/God. Course it ultimate up to the woman what she gonna do, but if it were any one else with correct knowing of Koran and sunnah, would just apply the sunnah of the prophet to tell the young man that it ok to divorce when she try so hard to make him so upsetted. Apply the young man to the woman and the girl to the husband and u gotta dance. Know she love the man accause u already say this.. Some time love mean to know when to let go. Salam

  15. Ayesha72
    August 17, 2006 3:25pm

    FYI - she was married several years to the guy before they had the kids. The problems only cropped up the last year or so in a very long and loving relationship. Don't be so quick to judge, you didn't even know the time frame. That camcorder idea. Well, he remembers everything he does while drunk. He is an alcoholic, meaning he has a high tolerance these days for alcohol. He doesn't go around slurring his words or stumbling, his attitude just completely changes. I wouldn't have believed it, but I have been witness to it more than once.

  16. Ayesha72
    August 17, 2006 3:29pm

    Let me make this perfectly clear... I asked her permission to post this on Naseeb and she agreed and she has been reading the responses as well. She isn't a member and doesn't know any of you, she only comes on Naseeb and looks around when she is at my home and I'm online. She knows what's be posted, I've called her before posting anything and emailed a copy of the question before posting it. I would never air ANYONE's private business without their express wish and permission.

  17. bkhan530
    August 17, 2006 3:53pm

    Have her buy life insurance on this guy and then afterwards inject him with kegs and kegs of alcohol each day until his liver rots. Once he's done and she's got a cool million from his passing (consider it alimony), she should go find a nice gold digger like me.

  18. Ayesha72
    August 17, 2006 3:57pm

    Here's why I am so double minded about things. Again, I said the question had to be in so few words it was hard to express every detail and of course ultimately, unless she decides to join herslef and tell her side without my posting it for her - we can never really know the whole story. Her husband has some health issues and felt he didn't have long to live, though I believe his doctor said with surgery and proper meds he would have no problem. He says he can't afford the healthcare or even going to the doctor on a regular basis and knowing their situation I'd say that's very true. I looked into low income medical, free clinics, etc... for them online and on the phone throughout our state and neither she nor I could come up with anyone who could help. They lost a business a few years back and without education, he hasn't been able to make a decent living ever since. The combination of those two, the financial hardships and the health issues made him think that she and the children were better off with someone who would love them, support them and in the end, she wouldn't end up his widow. This I know for a fact, because over the last year or two I have spoken to him directly about this, in depth and he said he loves her very much, wants her to be happy, wants her taken care of and wants his kids to have a good life. He is trying to be unselfish, yet in doing so is being selfish because she loves him and wants to stay with him. I've tried, her parents tried and her whole family intervened (she is an american convert as are her family, he is desi and all family is overseas), none of us can convince him that giving up the alcohol and trying to repair his life is what his wife wants and what he should be doing. He seems to have spiralled down so much that he is too depressed to do anything but drink and refuses to seek counseling, AA, etc.. He doesn't want to stop and says it all he enjoys. You can't imagine how this hurts her, and I love he so much because we are close, I really feel her pain. He is like a brother to me (I never had any of my own) and in the pat was always someone I could turn to for advice. I just don't understand how he can give up. She does really love him, she even left him for the drinking, he promised if she came back he would get help, but it was a lie and he never did. On one hand I see how much they love eachother despite the adversities, on the other hand I see how every day this is tearing her apart. These aren't bad people, that's why I asked for advice for her. They are just two people caught up in the cruelty of what some call LIFE.

  19. sam77
    August 17, 2006 4:13pm

    Fine, they didn't have kids right away. You have just said that this problem of alcoholism has only appeared in this past year. So your friend needs to talk to her husband and try to determine what has changed in the past year that has made her husband turn to drinking. People who drink do it to escape things that are happening in their life that they can't deal with. If he is saying, "when we get divorced" it may not necessarily mean that is what he wants in his heart. He can't be that stupid to not realize that his wife is not happy being with him due to his alcholism but he is probably too weak to change things and will need his wifes help and support. Its probably easier for him to get a divorce so his wife won't be miserable anymore than it is to get himself out of his depression and make his wife and children happy again. This is a true test of how much your friend really loves her husband........ Through thick and thin thou shalt be wed (I know thats what they say in Christain weddings but whatever :P )

  20. Agt_BAUER
    August 17, 2006 4:13pm

    All joking aside maybe he's gay (either all along or discovered it recently). Seriously thou who does that, accuses their wife of being unfaithful than tries to set her up with her ex.

  21. E
    August 17, 2006 7:51pm

    Ayesha you are the closest one with her among all of us ur the best person to give her advice thats ur job doesnt matter how the situation ends up whatever advice comes from you is gona be more helpful than what we can think of as we dont know the situation well. And you shuld be confident enuf to trust ur advice rather than trusting us strangers for an advice for this sensitive issue. Its seems like ur friends husband has given up on life. He seems to be caring as he has found out he cant take good care of ur friend anymore (he is not good enuf for her) so he is hooking her up wid her old friends. If his intentions were bad he wud have hooked her up wid his friends rather. Actually it sounds strange but i feel bad for both of them, due to some situations they have drifted apart and its hard to go back to it. I guess financial crisis in their lives have created such distances in their relationship. I would advice ur friend to talk to him and support him use words like -its gona be okay- and she shud trust him.

  22. paperdoll
    August 17, 2006 7:55pm

    he needs to boogey down to some sean paul avec le wife.

  23. sevenatesix
    August 17, 2006 8:56pm

    salams bleeeeach... to answer your question... i cant say for all people, but some for some people, the problems start during the pregnancy or after the kids are born... (unfortunately, i know from personal experience, my ex-husband became physically abusive during my pregnancy)...for others, as you said, people have not thought things out before they get into situations...and sadly, some widely given advice by the older generations is 'have a kid, it will help the problems. it will bring you closer together.' anyway, it isn't always as simple as it seems.

  24. Ayesha72
    August 18, 2006 1:30am

    They haven't had a single baby since they lost their business and they only have two young children. She doesn't care about his income, didn't you read that?

  25. effie
    August 18, 2006 1:46am

    alcoholism is a disease in the sense that people that become alcoholics are often genetically predisposed to alcoholism... i don't have any advice about the marriage, but it sounds like the hubby needs some medical help--counseling and possibly psychiatic drugs..get him to see a psychiatrist...

  26. Gulab-Jamun
    August 18, 2006 2:14am

    Why her family is not getting involved? Her family should get invovled, also guys family must get involved. This is the best role you can play friend and not to lose a friend. Get both sides families invovled if they exist. If not......hmmmm

  27. Leila_Leila
    August 18, 2006 6:38am

    William Parrish: Trust, responsibility, taking the weight for your choices and feelings, and spending the rest of your life living them. And above all, not hurting the object of your love. Joe Black: So that`s what love is according to William Parrish? William Parrish: Multiply it by infinity, and take it to the depths of forever, and you will still have barely a glimpse of what I`m talking about. Ayesha, this man claims to love your friend but his actions speak the opposite. He drinks to stupor, verbally abuses her and the guests, uses foul language in front of the children, makes their mother cry in front of them. What kind of a man is he? I am old school and I believe that when you love someone, you go to the end of the world just to make him/her happy. This guy is doing nothing more than hurting "the objects of his love" with his immature behavior. You are the head of the family; act like one! Your friend is coming to you not because she wants to leave him (she won't no matter what you tell her) but because she wants to vent out. There have been studies of women who stay in abusive relationships that have shown that these women love too much. They also base their love for these abusive partners solely on those few good moments they had together. Also, after a while, you kinda get used to the abuse and don't see it anymore as really bad. Of course, being of a patriarchal background accounts for another reason to stay. She probably thinks "where am I going to go with these kids? How will their stepfather treat them?" If I were her, I'd grab the kids and run. I am not saying, I'd get into another relationship--I'd just get a new appartment and solely support them on my own. Apparently her husband is more than a burden on her since he is a chronic drinker. I would tell him that I'd go back to him only when he has become sober and changed his life around. And he has to show proof for it...that he went to a support group and that he has a stable job. I am sorry but I cannot put in danger my kids' life because I love this man. Way too selfish!! I am a parent and my children should be my priority! p.s. May God protect us all from such dreadful situations!

  28. Nidz05
    August 18, 2006 10:06am

    I think you friend needs to give him an ultimatum, tell him to change otherwise she is leaving. Ayesha, in one of your earlier messages you said that she left at one point and to get her back he said he would get help but he didn't. Maybe he needs to experience what life would be like without his wife and kids to fully grasp the situation and he has tried it before and couldn't do it. You truly get to know the value of the things you have once you have lost them, maybe this applies to him as well. If he does not change she should stick to her word and leave him, if it was just your friend and her husband, I would say to her to do whatever she saw fit, stay with him leave him its her choice. HOWEVER, there are kids involved in this situation, does she really want her kids to grow up in this environment? Does she really want her kids to think its ok for a woman to be treated like $hit and for her to put up with it? Whether they know it or not they are going to traumatize the kids if they keep going like this. It may be difficult for her to leave him since she loves him so much, but there comes a point where she has to say enough and leave. Through thick and thin: that B$ in this situation, this only applies if they are in it together, he is on the rollercoaster of self-destruction and he has left her out to dry on her own. She needs to think about her kids if not herself and get out for her kids. People say you turn in to your parents when you get older, (I dont know the combo of her kids but) if she has a daughter does she really want her to learn that its ok to be treated that way, and if she has a son does she want him to think its ok to treat his wife that way and expect her to stick around. Her husband is not only ruining his life own life but the lifes of three other people as well.

  29. t-dog
    August 18, 2006 10:15am

    Sounds like he turned to drinking as a "cure" for depression. If she's got kids she needs to think of how this is affecting them if she's feeling this awful about things. I am so sorry to hear this. It sounds like both of the couple really love each other. I mean, a man trying to foist his wife off on a friend so that she's taken care of. No, this doesn't happen often, but reading between the lines, I don't think it was meant negatively. I think this guy really wants to make sure his wife is taken care of and that his children will have a father "when he's gone." From the added information given, Ayesha, it sounds like he's not heeding the doctor's advice. If a person is facing a massive amount of surgery(ies) or medical care (cancer?) it can be a very scary thing. I'm facing childbirth and I'm freaked out about that! So it's perfectly natural for a person to be scared of the unknown. Sounds like the financial aspect has him concerned too. Gosh, there is so much that needs done with this family. The AA suggestion first and foremost is a must. It will also address his depression - and best of all: it's free. No excuses. Next, you're being a big help with the finding of free and low cost health care. If he needs surgery, perhaps the wife and kids can express to this guy that they don't want a "substitute" they want their real father/husband. If he could see how important he is to them maybe he'd be willing to get involved and have this medical situation resolved too. Nobody said this was going to be easy. And fixing these problems (more than one here) is going to be a very long uphill battle. There will be down days for him. If the wife is strong enough, she can be his rock. Right now he's shouldering all the responsibility and pain - or rather he's attempting to do this (like a typical man). It's noble, but it's stupid. Women are strong creatures. Lean on us. We are natural care givers and nurturers and sometimes even a man can find solace from that. And once a mind is relaxed and calmed, then it can find solutions previously blocked. I will pray that Allah (swt) will help mend this family's broken spirit. I can't imagine anyone else who could help more right now. Wow.

  30. t-dog
    August 18, 2006 2:37pm

    I agree with the thought of separating for awhile - just for the kids sake, but I think it's best if the kids could just be shipped off to grandma's or somewhere relative-wise until the situation can be brought under some control. (i.e., the drinking problems) I really don't think this guy is a bad person - except when he's drinking. That's the crux of most of their problems from what's been said. He's not blameless in the least. He chose to drink and he makes that decision each time he does it to excess. It's like attorney786 said and a couple others, the reasons behind this decision to "medicate" and "cure" his problems with alcohol have to be addressed. I sincerely believe that neither party really wants to divorce the other and I also think there is some very deep rooted feelings of love there (when the alcohol hasn't perverted the emotion). I feel so sorry for these two it breaks my heart, and the reason it breaks my heart is simply for the fact that I really can see this working out. I can see changes and their relationship could become stronger for having survived this. Marriage is hard work, no one denies that here. But sometimes, we have couples who make it even harder for themselves. This man's self-confidence is based on most importantly - well any man's in any culture would be the same - his ability to provide for his family. Take that away and it's like you strip a man of his dignity. It shouldn't have to be this way, but unfortunately it is. And if he's of certain ethnic backgrounds it is even deeper rooted in his psyche. Starting with the financial troubles, having to borrow money from friends or institutions is embarrassing - as any of us who've had to do it know. Needing to do it excessively...well, tongues could be wagging and gossip would only exaccerbate the already desperate measures he's taking (drinking). The idea that he's telling her to find someone else - or worse finding someone FOR her - is what gives me pause to think that maybe he's just trying to provide for his family the only last desperate way he can think of: find someone else who can. Tack on that stuff about his medical problems and well, you could also imagine perhaps he's trying to provide for "when he's gone." On the one hand, this is actually selfish, but he perhaps means it with good heart. Granted, that is ruined when he's drunk and accuses her of cheating (but this is when he's drunk and not rationally thinking anyway). Surely this would change if he could begin the AA arrangement. I can only pray for this woman and her kids. This is an awful situation to be found in, and worse when you love the man. Chaulk it up to pregnancy hormones but I just want to cry for her.

  31. Ayesha72
    August 18, 2006 5:18pm

    Msg me so I can msg you back... Naseeb keeps saying "connection unavailable"... To everyone else, let me clarify - this guy only acts like an idiot when drinking, otherwise he is one of the sweetest people you will ever meet. I don't know one person anywhere who doesn't love him to death and think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread even to spite the drinking. The one thing that surprises me is how no one here is very crtitical about the drinking since they are muslim and it's prohibited for him to be drinking. I am rather liberal and though I don't drink, I don't think it is cause for a divorce if your spouse does it (unless they are an alcoholic jerk 24/7). If they commit the sin, they pay the price. I don't think someone should leave over it. I have, however, had so many people we know and so many relatives of hers absoultely freak over the whole thing and start acting like mullah's saying any one should leave their spouse if they drink PERIOD. When not drunk he absolutely adores his wife and adores his children. I am positive from talking to him and from him talking to relatives and other friends that his intentions are to make sure she is taken care of and happy. He doesn't like thinking of her being a widow (it's not a def, but he has a bad heart, high bp, bad liver and kidneys - and this was PRIOR to the drinking and not caused by it - though it makes it worse obviously) if something happened to him and he says he hates to see her do without things or his kids do without because she came from a background that wasn't rich, but where she was well provided for and never had a need for anything. She told me he said that he wants to go home to his parents where he can relax and not have so much stress in hopes it would make his health a little better. She can't and won't take her kids out of the USA and doesn't want to leave them and he doesn't see this as an option either from what I have seen. There isn't anywhere for the kids to stay and I don't think she could live without them for a minute because they are the world to her. I've never seen anyone who loves her children more. Also, she did try separating and he refused to leave the house. He said he would leave, but just stayed in his vehicle outside her house and said he couldn't stand to leave the kids and her and would rather sleep in the car if he had to than to leave. I know this has happened three or four times. Obviously he plays on her love for him and she always gives in... Like I said, I am so double minded about this I can't tell her a thing. Sometimes when I see her hurt and upset I want to say ) RUN AWAY, then other times I think, how could she ever think of leaving? Doesn't everyone want someone who adores them like that? As for AA and all that, believe me - everyone has told him, we have all begged him. He can't and won't admit it's a problem and when he does say he knows it's a problem he says he has to have it to "feel good" with so much stress going on. This couple only argues when he is drinking and saying hurtful things and I *think* the accusations are to anger her enough to just dump him, but she never does... I'm just praying about it and maybe that is all anyone can do. I cn see from the posts, you guys aren't any clearer on what she should do than I am, she is or even he is.

  32. Ayesha72
    August 18, 2006 5:34pm

    I was saying msg me to T-Dog...lol It left off who the comments were for...

  33. attorney786
    August 18, 2006 6:27pm

    Ayesha72 - Look, I don't know you at all, and I understand that it's difficult for someone to convey tone of voice and body language on the internet, so maybe you don't mean it. But I have to say, for someone who comes on this site asking for advice, you sure criticize the advice-givers and put down their advice a lot. Maybe you don't mean to talk down to us, but that's how it seems when you express surprise because we haven't condemned the husband for drinking. OF COURSE we know drinking is haraam! But telling you that isn't going to solve the problem, now is it? What exactly is it that you want? We have suggested an aggressive, group intervention that will force him into rehab. Videotape his drunk outbursts, and show him when he's sober. If he really is the "absolute angel" you claim he is when he's sober, then the tapes might motivate him. T-dog and others have recommended AA programs and other institutions of assistance. Uzma03 provided a link with info from the National Institute of HEalth on the matter. A lot useful info and worthy advice has been given here, but you don't take it, you shoot it down, then you call us unclear and indecisive. Did you post this because you sincerely wanted advice, or did you just want to reveal this juicy bit of gossip? It's obvious what needs to be done. Stop whining and belittling valid advice from people trying to help. Get off your computer. Get all his friends and family together simultaneously. Form a plan. ALL OF YOU GO OVER AND CONFRONT HIM THEN FORCEFULLY TAKE HIM TO REHAB EVERYDAY. What the heck else is there left to do? You feel so bad for him because he's SUCH A SWEETHEART when he's sober. I don't give a poop. What are you so confused about? Some people just need to be continuously kicked hard in the rear end to get them to turn themselves around. Obviously, he is one of those people. It's called TOUGH LOVE. Deal with him like an adult would deal with any problem logically. Find the root cause, develop a strategy, address the issue, begin healing, work towards long term goals, and execute preventative measures to keep from letting it happen again. Stop making excuses for this moron, turn off your computer, get up, and do something about it.

  34. hinasugar
    August 18, 2006 9:35pm

    alcohol can do crazy things with people..

  35. Agent926
    August 19, 2006 3:17am

    It makes me sad to hear about Muslims suffering from the negative effects of Alcohol. However, everyone one of us is susceptible to this temptation. The husband in question here needs counseling. He needs love, support, guidance, and prayers. I am a firm believer in making things work. Unless he is beating his wife or abusing her physically or mentally, a proactive and postive approach to this problem needs to be executed. Confront him with family and friends and as Attorney786 alluded to earlier, start showing him some tough love. Most importantly, do not forget to pray for his recovery. Go with God.

  36. osman
    August 19, 2006 11:33am

    A friend of mine implored me, as a psychiatrist, to comment on this topic. Obviously, there are no simple or one-size-fits-all solutions to complex problems where the presenting issue often just scratches the surface. Clearly there are many issues to address in this case, and this is why there are professionals out there--professionals who can incorporate the multi-dimensional aspects of the individuals involved, investigate possible etiologic factors, and propose potential solutions/interventions/treatments in a manner that is consistent with the level of motivation of the person seeking help. Effie and Uzma03 already made some great suggestions. If you would not mind, I would like to address the real issue (not the alcoholism, etc.) but the issue raised in the original entry. That entry suggests that the reason you (Ayesha) are asking for advice on Naseeb ("the problem is I've seen people give advice & then...") is that you do not want to give someone advice about sensitive and serious issues for fear of losing a friend or worse, giving advice that results in bad outcomes. Ironically, no matter where your original source of advice comes from, its always going to be coming directly from you, which will result in the same problem you have already faced with your friend. Obviously, as a caring individual you do not want to just stop trying to help your friends. But when you feel overwhelmed, try to shift the locus of control back to the person seeking advice so that they can find it professionally. It will allow yourself to feel a little less stressed and to be a much better friend.

  37. sam77
    August 19, 2006 1:00pm

    Ayesha, we get it already that he is a wonderful guy when not drunk so how does repeating that over and over help solve the problem of when he is infact drunk?! I agree with Attorney's last comment because, Ayesha, its seems you get OVERLY defensive over every suggestion people make. I said earlier that you need to find out what is the underlying issue that is depressing him and you pointed it out that it may have to do with financial issues. Alot of men value their self-worth based on how well they can support their famiy and take care of them. He obviously feels like a failure in that department hence he is depressed. EVERY one needs to help him get out of this problem. Maybe friends and family can pool money together and give your friends husband an incentive to get back on his feet?! It is never to late to go back to school. Maybe the wife can get a part time job while her husband gets training in a specific skill set?! Its never too late to go back to school. Maybe friends and family can get money together to send him to school to learn computer skills (or upgrade his skills somehow) so that he can find a decent job? In his own eyes he is not worthy enouhg of his wife and familiy so maybe having a degree/diploma to work towards will increase his self-worth? These are all suggestions....but what will work best for your friend and her husband is something they have to discuss together. NOtice how I have not even mentioned anything about the drinking above. The drinking issue is a RESULT of the real issues at hand. Solve the REAL issue and the result (which is drinnking) will go away on its own. ALso, as a Muslim I would never drink. But i don't think condemning drinking in this situation is a good way to help anyone solve the problem. Its a given that drinking is against Islam, hence the fact that such situations exist within Muslim families is all the more saddening.

  38. Ayesha72
    August 19, 2006 3:39pm

    You're right - it doesn't read tone, facial expressions or body langauge when you type, so apparently what you guys read as "defensive" or "criticizing" is really me just explaining when one or another poster says something or asks something about something I already explained. Sometimes people jump to post without reading everyone else's post - ,meaning they read the original question - but not the follow up posts by me with some additional information... I do appreciate everyone's input, advice and ideas - sorry if it didn't come across that way...

  39. Ayesha72
    August 19, 2006 3:44pm

    Forgot to mention - except me - there are no more CLOSE friends or family in the same state, and most of them out of country for this couple. There used to be a few family and friends and we were a tight knit group - but recently several left the country to back home and then five other people moved to another state within the last couple months.... Not much of a support system left except little ole me. There isn't anyone family or freind wise at this point that has the money to offer any assistance with help, school or otherwise. If there was - I would have already been utilizing this an idea. I alsready came up with every idea posted here so far, and none of them had worked, that's precisely why she and I thought some new "heads" to think on ideas would help. Thanks to everyone:) Your concern is appreciated.

  40. salsadoc
    August 19, 2006 5:18pm

    the husband: alcoholic, unemployed, verbally abuses wife in private and in public. tries to set up wife with other men. (how disgusting is that?) in between his mean periods he is nice to his wife and child. the wife: is attatched to the husband despite all this. this is a typical scenario that we learn in med school and in our training later on as well. classic text book situation. even when this guy eventually starts beating her she will still not leave him. bc in between the beatings he will be nice to her and the child. what is scary is not that she is stuck in this situation,(bc there is a way out) but that so many naseebers are as blind as her and think this relationship is worth saving. not only does she need to divorce this abusive alcoholic leech living off her, but she needs to report the abuse to the police so he faces the consequences of the pain he has put her through. remember people, pain is not only physical. psychological pain can cause a human being allot of agony and long lasting harm. it is truly sad that both the men and women on this site do not see the spousal abuse going on over here. this is another testimony to how acceptable it is in muslim societies for women to be abused. people are actually saying that she should try to help this abusive alcoholic and tough it through the relationship while helping him. the only person that needs help is the woman: she needs to call the police to help her get rid of him. i bet a hundred bucks that when she finally tries to divorce him, he will get violent with her. and i bet there will still be naseebers over here saying that she should try to work things out.

  41. sam77
    August 19, 2006 6:31pm

    Ayesha: Remember, as Muslims, we always have each other. I know it might not always seem that way, but it is true. Every once in awhile there is someone in our community who is in dire need of help (financially or otherwise) and sometimes being relatively new, they dont know anyone and don't know who to turn to. For the longest time, my mother and others have always made it their task to help such people by collecting money and giving it to them in their time of need. You may not be able to help your friends on your own so I suggest going to the main mosque and asking them if they themsleves, or someone they know can help. You will quickly discover that their are people in your community who deal with such issues in a regular basis. It will also give you the opporutnity to learn that there ARE infact those in our Muslim communities who care about others and don't JUDGE. :)

  42. sam77
    August 19, 2006 6:59pm

    I may agree with what you have said if the scenario were different, but under the circumstances I completely dissaagree with you. For some men, it is part of their NATURE to be agressive and abusive and with such men, YES I agree that women should not put up with it AT ALL. However, men have a way of often getting depressed and resorting to drinking to solve their problems (and women too). I've seen it in many families where men have lost their jobs and they end up taking out their frustrations on their family. I"m not justifying such behaviour because men should realize that it is unfair to take out the frustrations of their life outside of the home onto their family, the people who care about them the most. As Ayesha has mentioned, its not that mans nature to be the way he is, its is something that has happened in the past year and she has provided the reasons that have led him to drinking. At an Islamic lecture I went to about marriage, the men were told that they should be careful to not be disagreeable with their wife just because they are having a tough time at work. However, the women were also told that if sometimes your husband is edgy or mean to you and you know that things are not going well at work for him, then don't take it personally. Just be patient and loving and point it out nicely and kindly to him that you are there for him but don't think its fair for him to take out his frustrations on the family. Granted Ayesha case is alot more serious because of the fact that the husband is resorting to drinking, but what you learn in Med school isn't always clear cut and applicabale in every situation. From everything that Ayesha has shared it seems to be that the underlying issue behind the drinking is his financial problems. Some men are strong enough to not resort to drinking and find a concrete solution to their problem, others are not. I prefer looking to ISlam for answers rather than following what western doctors and psychologists say because more often than not, they haven't got a clue. They say at their church weddings 'through thick and thin' and yet at the first sign of trouble they bail out. This man needs HELP and no one is EVER a lost cause. And who better to help this man other than his wife. In a weird twisted way, from what I see, this man LOVES his wife if he is telling her to go find someone who makes her happier (yes, I love reading books on psychology!!). It shows that he DOES care about her happiness and realizes that he is hurting her but unfortunately he isn't man enough and too depressed to pick himslef up for the sake of his familiy. Instead, he is so weak that he can only resort to telling his wife to find happiness elswhere. This man, in the time of weakness, needs his wife more than ever and I"m sorry Salsadoc but I totally dissagreee with what you have written and I can tell you that just because some people are suggesting that the girl stick with her husband, we are anything but blind. I"m not one to take ANY nonsense from anyone, including a husband but that man needs help and I would never turn my back on those who need me most.

  43. saroch
    August 20, 2006 12:32am

    I agreed with Salsadoc, why should she suffer? she should tried to make her life better and be emmotionally independent. It's all orthodog's ideas stick to your husbans till judement day. he is not going to change, all you can to admit him to some hospital and start your new life.life is short and you have only one change to live it.

  44. Ayesha72
    August 20, 2006 1:38am

    I've known this guy most of my life, he is not and never has been physically abusive. Let me tell you, he won't even kill bugs... I have also lived with them more than once and I see her EVERYDAY, it just doesn't happen. She is wondering whether to stay regardless of the drinking - which stems from his depression or go as he tells her because it's what he wants her to do since he thinks it is best. You said "verbally abuses wife in private and in public."... I NEVER said he verbally abuses her in public, that hasn't ever happened and wasn't said. I understand what you are saying, but since you don't these people and I do - I know what he is like and I know he told me that he was trying to get her to leave so she would be happy. I also NEVER said he was unemployed or not trying to support his family. He is self employed, but since they lost their store (the company sold out, they didn't screw it up or anything) he has had a very hard time supporting them without assistance every few months from others. By the way, he suffered a minor heart attack this afternoon, so her mind it made up now as well as mine. He needs her more than ever to stick by him and help him through it. Thanks for everyone's input.

  45. Atefa
    August 20, 2006 2:13am

    This post is for Ayesha who asked Naseeb for advice. You asked the question and it sounded like it was a real issue... but in your responses, it sounds like you already have made up your mind about the alcoholic husband, i.e. he is a wonderful person. so why the question? I hope the wife makes the best decision for herself and her child, whatever she feels that is. I have to wonder though, if the behavior was the other way around, how much support an alocholic wife would get, if she drank, wasn't there for her husband and child, and pushed her husband onto another woman.

  46. salsadoc
    August 20, 2006 8:48am

    "when he is drunk he makes awful allegations and calls her names with no reason at all. I've been there and seen it, he doesn't even curb his tongue in front of friends or close family members. No provocation required, he'll just start in on her till she is in tears sometimes" this is not verbal abuse? as i said, whats sad is that most muslims dont even think this is abuse.

  47. Choosa
    August 20, 2006 9:38am

    Peace be upon you, You need to identify your priority.Do you prefer to have a friendship where you becoe the sounding board and thus wear down your own spirit when you hear of the difficulties your friend has, or do you want to help your friend such that she can resolve her own predicament knowing that in doing so, by offering her advice, you ay loose her friendship in the short term. People can be reactionary particularly when they are faced with hard truths they do not wish to address. In any case you will find that a true friendship can overcome any short-term disagreements. That fellow needs professional help and you (directly or otherwise) need to ensure that your friend ensures he recieves the help he needs. Your friend also need professional help to address her predicament - and that is something you should not only encourage but make her do. And may Allah make things easy for your friend and her husband, amen. As to those who are critising the questioner, whether she does or doesn't mock those who ask questions is entirely irrelevant to your right as the self righteous Muslim you present yourself to be in making such critisim, granting her the right to not only voice her concerns, but also addressing her concerns to the best of your ability. And as the Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace, said, speak good or keep silent, and Allah knows best.

  48. Ayesha72
    August 20, 2006 3:39pm

    I never said it wasn't verbal abuse - I said it doesn't happen in public.. It has only occurred in their home. If anyone is wondering, he's still in ICU today, but is improving. They have located two blockages, but he can't afford the surgery here so she told me this morning that when he is released he will likely leave and go home for about 6 months to have surgery there where it is more affordable. My bet is - 6 months in Pak with no alcohol is going to nip the problem in the bud. I hope everyone will be praying for him while he has his surgery, and for her too.

  49. Tounuscan
    August 20, 2006 4:32pm

    Get real! hehehehe.. where u think the subtle art of distilling come from? very sorry to hear he have the surgery but u must understand that pakistan maybes he only way out now.. He die in peace there eh? or he get surgery there and then he hang with undesirable pakistani's. then he get losted in crowd eh? Very easy simples... salam

  50. t-dog
    August 21, 2006 8:05am

    I agree with him. He IS verbally abusing her when he's drunk - this doesn't have to be public, Ayesha72. It's still abuse.

  51. t-dog
    August 21, 2006 8:09am

    Well, if he won't go to AA, then you can't force him. He has to want help. Honestly, the only other thing I can suggest is that the wife leave him until he's more willing to change. He can't possibly not know that he needs to make some changes in his life so why should she have to put up with that? Why should the kids be witness to all this?

  52. uzma03
    August 21, 2006 9:04am

    Attorney786: The definition of disease is variable, as is evident by the following four definitions: (1) www.m-w.com , (2) dictionary.reference.com , (3) en.wikipedia.org , (4) www.crescentlife.com Just to go back a bit, you wrote I don't subscribe to the notion that alcoholism is a disease. We are not born with it, it is not communicable, and it's not a progressive development. People are not born alcoholics, yes, but some individuals are more predisposed to it than others. People also arent born with diabetes, obesity, or coronary heart disease, but they develop them later on in life through a combination of genetics and environmental factors. Not all diseases are communicable Alzheimers, hypertension, depression, and arthritis, just to name some examples. Alcoholism does have a progressive development and can progress to the point of liver failure, coughing and vomiting blood, inability to clot blood properly leading to bleeding from various orifices of the body, and death if left untreated. There are many other sicknesses that alcoholics also develop, but liver failure in and of itself is usually what eventually kills alcoholics. Its like a slow suicide. Your entry eludes to the never-ending fight between religion and science. Yes, many things that were written in the Quran are now being discovered by science (ie. the Big Bang theory, embryology, et cetera). However, I think there are many things not described in religion that are being described by science now, especially in the field of genetics and the genetic basis of disease. Scientists can now pinpoint which chromosome in your body is responsible for what as well as what chromosomal abnormalities cause what diseases (in some cases). Scientists now also have a better understanding of what diseases tend to run in families, such as heart disease, asthma, diabetes, hypertension, and, yes, substance abuse and mood disorders compared to what is purely iatrogenic, such as bladder cancer from smoking. Alcoholism as a disease process consists of well-defined symptoms: Craving--A strong need, or urge, to drink. Loss of control--Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun. Physical dependence--Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking. Tolerance--The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to get "high." www.niaaa.nih.gov Also keep in mind that both alcohol withdrawal can kill you just as alcohol overdose can. The risk for developing alcoholism is influenced both by a person's genes and by his or her lifestyle. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems. www.niaaa.nih.gov Alcoholics are horribly undernourished people because they dont even eat food. Their entire caloric intake in a day comes from alcohol. The only way an alcoholic can drink to the point of losing employment, house, family, health, and good legal standing is through addiction (just stop and imagine that for a second). They are very cognizant that they are slowly losing everything, but are just unable to stop drinking, until they usually hit rock bottom. Addiction in itself is a disease, and people are genetically prone to addiction. psychiatrictimes.com Just to give you an example, people who are caffeine addicts are dependent on caffeine and do get withdrawal symptoms. However, we dont think about it as such because the stigma with caffeine addiction is much less than with substances such as alcohol, cocaine, heroin, et cetera. I recognize that many Islamic scholars dont recognize alcoholism as a disease. The Islamic Research Foundation has published a pamphlet that clearly states that alcoholism is Satans handiwork. But I also will enunciate that Islam advocates COMPLETE PROHIBITION. Arguably, never having even a drink of alcohol (which Islamically is the doing of Satan) would prevent you from becoming an alcoholic. But Islam doesnt delve into the consequences of addiction to alcohol (ie. the person who is genetically predisposed to addiction who has already bypassed prohibition). So that means that there isnt much of a religious basis to discuss alcoholism as an addiction and disease, other than say one shouldnt drink alcohol in the first place. Some Islamic scholars have started approaching the issue because more and more Muslims are drinking these days and alcoholism is becoming more prevalent in the Muslim population. See: (1) www.crescentlife.com , (2) www.islamonline.net It is truly unfortunate, but alcoholics will NOT give up drinking unless and until they are SELF-MOTIVATED. This is a proven fact, as with other addictions. The following article gives a great historical perspective on Islamic prohibition, something that occurred because people were willing to cease alcohol intake. www.dartmouth.edu I do advocate guiding this gentleman toward Alcoholics Anonymous (which has had the best results in comparison to other ways of quitting) www.alcoholics-anonymous.org , but unless and until HE wants it for himself, dont expect a major turnaround. I know that sounds harsh, but I have seen too many people sit around with an alcoholic spouse, hoping that one day they will stop. It rarely happens this way. And, as I mentioned before, Ayeshas friend may also benefit from the services of Al-Anon or Alateen www.al-anon.alateen.org . I am unaware of what his other health problems are, but there ARE services out there, even for those without financial means. Labelling alcoholism as a disease does NOT make it okay to be an alcoholic. Rather, it should serve as an eye-opener to recognize that there is indeed a big problem and help should be sought.

  53. sonima
    August 21, 2006 12:34pm

    First of all she should kick his A-- and take off, he is a loser, what kind of a man would arrange for his wife to be with another man. Tell her to show some dignity for herself and yes she should leave the loser and start a new life, she will be better off being alone then being with this loser.The sad thing is this guy is Desi and he is pretending to fit into the American Culture and ways. Our Men don't do things like this and if they do they are unworthy of a Desi Girl. Please tell your friend to move on.

  54. hollywoodomar
    August 21, 2006 12:37pm

    the guy needs some serious counseling. please recommend that he be admitted to rehab for his alcoholism. Chemical addiction is a serious disease and needs to be treated. There is help available. Calling an institution like the Betty Ford Center can be a good start. Thanks and Good Luck!

  55. ExoticNeurotic
    August 22, 2006 8:36am

    Salaams, Maybe the best thing for him to do is to pick up and go home to his family-no doubt they'll box his ears for drinking, and if it's Pakistan and not the states where they're based, he'll find it pretty damn difficult to find a bar (without resorting to red light districts, which even then will probably kill him outright with their warped concotions probably. Can't drink the water, can't drink the beer right?!) Maybe seeing all those legless and handless beggars on the street will remind him he's got a loving home and family who want him and he's not as bad off as a one eyed, one handed, one legged beggar type scouring the street! Send him home! Maybe he'll quit drinking, his family can deliver lectures 24/7, and his wife will get a well deserved break, in the mean time she should look at daycare and working in a job- he's obviously going to take time to be an earner and recover his duties. Sad but true. Anyway, i say give him a flight back home and maybe his rear end will get that kicking it needs......

  56. attorney786
    August 22, 2006 9:15am

    Uzma, thank you very much for your thorough and thoughtful entry. I feel the need, however, to clarify a few things. First, I never alluded to any fight between religion and science. Nowhere in my entry did I mention any religious stance on whether alcoholism is a disease. I took the stance I did after using logic and reasoning, as well as my own observations. You mentioned that, "People also arent born with diabetes, obesity, or coronary heart disease, but they develop them later on in life through a combination of genetics and environmental factors. Not all diseases are communicable Alzheimers, hypertension, depression, and arthritis, just to name some examples." While this is true, none of these diseases can cease to be after a voluntary decision by the person. Can a person decide he doesn't want to be diabetic anymore? Is there any record of an Alzheimer patient who said, "Man, this sucks. I've decided not to suffer this disease anymore" ? No, because none of these legitimate diseases can end by a voluntary choice or change in behavior. Want the cure for alcoholism? Put down the bottle. It's a choice. As simple as I have stated it, I never said it was easy. But it is a choice nonetheless. The reason anybody develops alcoholism is because at some point they made the conscious decision to try to drown their problems. I can't lend credit to someone who voluntary makes this decision then laments their repeating that choice over and over again as a disease. The first step towards recovering from alcoholism (or any voluntary addiction, for that matter), is to take responsibility for your actions and choices. Claiming that you're a helpless victim of some disease that has stricken you evades that responsibility. The cure for alcoholism clearly lies in making the conscious, deliberate, and voluntary decision to change the person's own behavior. All of the people who suffer from the real diseases you listed wish they had it that good.

  57. Rizman05
    August 22, 2006 12:25pm

    Uzma03 is a smart girl...believe me...I think everyone should listen to what shes saying and learn from her...Only thing Uzma lacks in is her AIR HOCKEY skills....well thats a different story....Uzma03 contact Rizman05 and he'll help u out in airhockey! ;)

  58. Sahadat
    August 23, 2006 12:41pm

    There is no conflict in what Attorney and Uzma says. That's because alcoholism is an addiction (this trend of calling it a disease is for the Oprah generation who need comfortable terms for everything). Addictions are debilitating and addicts need support and understanding. There is also only one person who can break an addiction - the addict himself.

  59. GivMeButrFlies
    August 23, 2006 4:19pm

    he needs help. tell her to help him get it. if he refuses, she needs to be a strong WOMAN and move on.

  60. uzma03
    August 23, 2006 9:45pm

    Attorney786: I understand you specifically never took a religious stance on alcoholism. However, it just seems that people who do not view it as a "science" (if you will) have underlying confounding religious viewpoints. So it sort of indirectly, to me, raised the issue of science versus religion. I would just like to clarify that I absolutely agree that the FIRST drink is a choice, just as quitting drinking is a choice. I wholeheartedly agree with you. That's why I stated and restated that self-motivation on behalf of the alcoholic is the only way to resolve the problem. I just also know that it's easier for some people not to get addicted based on genetics. Do all people who smoke get lung cancer? No, some people are genetically less susceptible to developing cancer than others. Similarly, not everyone who drinks will become an alcoholic and actually have control over how much they do consume (again, I'm not advocating drinking). We know that some people DO have issues with impulse control, usually manifest in the form of some type of mood disorder. And unfortunately, these mood disorders and addictive behaviors tend to go hand-in-hand. That's what makes it a disease. Not all people become alcoholics because they wanted to "drown" their problems. I can give you one example of a guy I actually went to med school with who started drinking a beer a night or so, and slowly started consuming more and more alcohol until things got out of hand. I'm sure he had underlying issues, but he didn't initially start drinking to "drown out" med school or his problems. He just had some kind of affinity to it and found he liked it a lot - until it almost cost him his future. The "cure" for alcoholism would be to never take that first drink to begin with. I'm not sure if Alcoholics Anonymous makes you do this or not, but some rehab programs do make you apologize to each and every person you hurt because of your behavior as part of the rehab process - to acknowledge the poor behavior so that it will not recur. Last night on Discovery Health, Dr. Phil had an episode in which he discussed various addictions (how funny that his show seemed to time appropriately with this journal). He interviewed various people who had addictions - , caffeine, smoking, gambling, shopping (I turned the TV off after that). These people are COGNIZANT that what they are doing is WRONG and affecting them and everyone else around them. They are just unable to quit without major therapy. An alcoholic will tell you (s)he has a "drinking problem." They have become physically dependent on alcohol, yet they also know they shouldn't be drinking. They just can't stop. It takes a major trigger to make some become un-dependent on something they've become so mentally and physically used to. I would like to comment on your question "Can a person decide he doesn't want to be diabetic anymore?" The most common form of diabetes is type II diabetes, which most commonly occurs from poor eating habits and obesity. We used to only see this in the adult population, but, now with the avent of sedentary lifestyles, fast food, and non-nutritious school lunches, we are also seeing an epidemic of this in children, even in kids as young as 10 years old. The "cure" for this is simple - low carbohydrate diet and plenty of exercise. I have had SOME (but few and far between) patients no longer need diabetes medications because they have lost an edequate amount of weight. Yet, somehow, this epidemic is costing millions if not billions of dollars in health care costs (blindness, bypass surgery, heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, limb amputations) because people are unwilling to make the lifestyle changes they need to overcome this horrible disease. So, yes, you CAN choose to not be a type II diabetic. Obesity and type II diabetes are more prevalent diseases then alcoholism. Why are we any more tolerant of someone who won't eat a proper diet and do regular exercise? It's all about the stigma of the disease you have. My job is not to judge people for the lifestyle decisions they make, rather to help them understand their wrong decisions and help them overcome those decisions so they can get back on the bandwagon.

  61. adnans42
    August 23, 2006 11:08pm

    This is most def. a dysfunctional couple and a strange situation there has to be much more going on behind the scenes......

  62. Telluride
    August 24, 2006 12:49am

    salaam sis... wow. that sounds like such a cop-out to me. he wants the easy way out...but she'd be crazy to give it to him. unless this is his way of getting out of an unwanted marriage, i think she should stick it out and continue to proactively love him. by proactively i mean she seriously needs to smack him around a little. tough love baby. i know that's easier said than done, but a few things to keep in mind are: * if he really wanted to divorce her, all he had to do was say the magic words. the fact that he's still there tells me that he's giving her an out but doing it in a way that still makes him look like a hero. * she needs to NOT be passive about the situation; if she loves him, she's gotta show it, even if it means holding his hand through AA, reading self-help books outloud, or refusing to sleep in his bed (that ayah goes both ways). * people need to stop lending him money; he'll be forced to stand on his own two feet and support his family, otherwise he'll starve. *no threats. no ultimatums. they won't work. it will take work and patience on her part, but if she tries hard enough, she will find a way to inspire/strengthen him. And finally...EVERYONE goes through hard times, and every one of us is prone to making poor decisions and horrible mistakes... but Allah swt is "muqallib al-quloob" (the turner of hearts) and He can flip it in either direction at any second. So none of us should get too comfortable in our current states--and all of us should maintain hope in Allah swt and the promise that guidance is just a prayer away. i know we don't necessarily believe in that "til death do us part" stuff, but marriage has to last as long as there's still a fight left in you. Allah swt promised us hardship and struggles and He always keeps his word. I pray insha'Allah that He gives your friend and her husband the strength and determination needed to get through their struggles. I have faith that you will find the right words and offer the advice she needs.

  63. attorney786
    August 24, 2006 12:20pm

    Inspirational - Although cancer may be prevented by certain diets and lifestyle changes, it still strikes without any known provocation completely independent of a victim's choices. And yes, the other diseases you listed can be a result of certain lifestyles. But once afflicted, the victim does not cure him/herself by choosing to alter their behavior. Alcoholism is a choice through and through from beginning to end. Can you cure cancer by putting down a bottle? How about Alzheimers - can you cure it by deciding to turn down a drink? The onset, tenure, and cure of Alcoholism lies in COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY choices the person makes. Show me a legitimate disease that can be cured in a moment by a voluntary decision. That hypothetical regarding the person who ate oily desi food - Can he cure his heart condition based on choices after the heart attack? No, he may reduce his chances of a future heart attack, but the damage is done and much of it is usually irreversible. The hypo regarding the woman who died of breast cancer - her breast cancer was not CAUSED by any choice she made. And her breast cancer would not have ceased to exist if she had merely decided not to suffer from it any more. Every circumstance you mentioned is totally unlike alcoholism, a condition in which you CAN decide to become personally responsible for your actions and behavior, and cure the condition by deciding to stop drinking. Also, nowhere in this entire exchange did I make a value judgment on anyone. Did I ever write that alcoholics are bad people? I simply stated the reasons why I felt alcoholism is not a legitimate disease, but a condition that starts, exists, and ends based on voluntary choices. I would greatly appreciate it if you wouldn't falsely accuse me of being "judgmental" or of making "value judgments." Perhaps you need to read more carefully before you point fingers. Uzma03 - Not needing diabetic medication is not the same as being cured of diabetes. They are simply better able to keep their sugar levels in check. So I still maintain that alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behavioral problem that can be corrected voluntarily. Again, I would like you to also note that I have not made judgments on anyone or their lifestyles, nor do I purport to have that power. I have only stated and explained my stance on why alcoholism is not a disease. Your assumptions regarding my religious beliefs and your insinuations that I'm making value judgments need to stop. I see that Sahadat understands my position very clearly. I never said that an alcoholic does not deserve compassion and help with his/her condition. I never said it was easy; in fact I stated that it is, in fact, very difficult. My opinion is that calling alcoholism a disease is a cop out to wash away the personal responsibility of the condition. I think we all agree that ending alcoholism begins with taking personal responsibility for the start, continuance, and end of the condition. And, frankly, I'm a bit tired of people comparing this voluntary condition to cancer, Alzheimer's, and other life-threatening or debilitating diseases that are not cured by simply putting down a bottle. You are insulting patients who are suffering from those legitimate diseases whenever you make that innaccurate analogy.

  64. t-dog
    August 24, 2006 2:22pm

    Actually for lots of cancers we don't know what causes them. So it's almost theoretical to try to claim that we aren't causing them by human races' own actions, which again belies the theory you are attempting to make about alcoholism. I agree with Sahadat in that it's an addiction that is extremely difficult to cure by the simple desire to put down a snifter of brandy (or whatever your poison is). It's not that simple and it's an injustice to alcoholics in my opinion to suggest that it is. It's the same with any addiction and most of us are addicted to something.

  65. bemowminatyahoo
    August 25, 2006 2:00am

    Salaam Sister, Well first if he can not stop drinking amd can not take his role to support the family, it is better for her to move on and find someone else, it is not good idea for the kids to grow around a drinking father Omar

  66. razal
    August 25, 2006 10:34am

    does anyone have a real problem???

  67. uzma03
    August 25, 2006 1:25pm

    Attorney786: The MAJORITY of cancers ARE related to lifestyle choices. Cancer as a disease process usually occurs because of lifestyle choices in concordance with cancer-susceptible genetics, yet once it begins, there is not always a "cure." Also, the only "cure" for alcoholism is just PREVENTION (just like one CAN prevent cancer by making conscientious health decisions like not smoking). People with alcoholism tend to have coexisting mood disorders - do you cure that by "putting down the bottle?" Absolutely not. Do you cure a patients susceptibility to chemical addiction by putting down the bottle? Absolutely not. Alcoholics need to be identified so that they understand that they are "at risk" and CAN RELAPSE AGAIN (just like people with cancer or lupus can relapse). In this gentleman's case, his children are also "at risk" for alcoholism based on the genetics, so it's even more important for them to STAY AWAY from alcohol to begin with (ie. prevention). I know I already mentioned that rehab programs do make an alcoholic accept responsibility for his/her actions as part of the detoxification and rehabilitation process. How is that a cop out for accepting responsibility for an alcoholics actions after being labeled as having a disease? That individual has to WANT to seek help in order to even get to that step (again, the SELF-MOTIVATION I have repeatedly mentioned). Until an alcoholic seeks help, (s)he is PHYSICALLY DEPENDENT on alcohol, just like humans depend on food and water to survive. There is objective data supporting this. How can that be a choice? How can it be a choice for one to have seizures, or abnormally fast heartbeat, or hallucinations, or even death if (s)he doesnt get a substance that (s)he physically depends on? In response to your statement I have only stated and explained my stance on why alcoholism is not a disease, I would just like to mention that you have, in fact, NOT explained why you think alcoholism is not a disease. You mentioned a disease being something We are born withcommunicablehas progressive development. I have thoroughly explained to you that these are not the only criteria for labeling something as a disease, as manifest by various definitions of disease. I described symptoms and signs of alcoholism to you. I explained physical dependence on alcohol to you. I have described treatments for alcoholism to you. I have supported my explanations with references to medical literature. Just within this thread, Dinastrange, Docick, Inspirational, Effie, Wingy786, Hollywoodomar, and Sahadat have all taken the stance that alcoholism is a disease. Unless and until you can reference a reputable scientific journal, it is fair to assume that your stance on alcoholism is indeed a non-scientific one. The only literature out there to support that alcoholism is not a disease is religious literature. This is NOT a reflection of your religious beliefs, rather the observation that PEOPLE (not YOU) adhere to either a religious viewpoint OR a scientific viewpoint of alcoholism. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully? Furthermore, your statement Not needing diabetic medication is not the same as being cured of diabetes. They are simply better able to keep their sugar levels in check, confirms that you do not understand diabetes as a disease process. Not needing diabetic medication means that the appropriate lifestyle modifications have occurred to OVERCOME the diabetes. That would be analogous to a cure. Until a diabetic cures his diabetes by losing weight, (s)he will still require medication to keep their sugar levels in check. Frankly, Im a bit tired of someone with a non-medical background trying to explain alcoholism as a non-disease without any supporting references other than own observations. Yet you dont understand how diseases like obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease CAN be overcome by cognizant, voluntary lifestyle choices (ie. cured, to use your terminology), as mentioned by myself and Inspirational. It is, in fact, you who are making inaccurate analogies (ie. curing Alzheimers by putting down a bottle the pathology of addiction and Alzheimers are completely different) and you who are insulting not only patients with disease who suffer but the whole field of medicine as a science. With all due respect, you are certainly entitled to your opinions as am I, but I cannot accept "own observations" as appropriate data to support that alcoholism is not a disease.

  68. Tounuscan
    August 25, 2006 2:58pm

    Only on Naseeb may the subject be took so far from the goal. Focus on ONE area have become very annoyer, specials since the ones who argue the one area have make it more than one and confuse the issue that were first stated. U wanna argue, maybes u need take seat at boxer ring to make the case more plain. Here the muslimah seem she have genuine issue and she look for the genuine help.. she already say that fact in case do no so much involve the man, but the sister have great bad pains to deal with it. Now u get in and change subject to alcoholism and cancer? hehehe and u so serious to say "Frankly, Im a bit tired of someone with a non-medical background trying to explain alcoholism as a non-disease " Think we all kinda tired of ppls to explain the cancer and alchoholism, and very sure that no ones credentials here are any better than the other so why no we just given it a break eh? Grow up and go to u own corners now, pls... Suckem if u gottem.... salam

  69. Rizman05
    August 25, 2006 3:34pm

    Can't we all just get along.....?

  70. salsadoc
    August 26, 2006 6:41pm

    since you are a doctor, you should know better than to say that majority of cancers are related to lifestyle changes. yes in todays life there are a number of carcinogens that have become (for the most part unwillingly), a part of our life and are a factor in creating cancer. but dont forget, most people exposed to those cacinogens do not get cancer. only a few do, and we have no idea why they do. yes, we have multiple theories as to why certain people get cancer from carcinogens and certain people dont, but they are just theories. to put the blame peoples life styles for thier getting cancer is wrong. no one deserves cancer. as for data, well lung cancer has an extrememy strong association with smoking. 90% of the time smoking is involved. but still more than 90% of people who smoke do not get lung cancer. so even with smoking, when someone gets cancer, you cant say well it was a life style choice. thats just cold. your view on cancer and its relationship to life style is shallow, incorrect and immature. hopefully as your training continues you will develop a better understanding of this relationship, and will also develop some much needed humanistic qualities. very rarely can you actually blame a patient for the disease s/he has. and cancer is definitely not one of them. im a final yr pulmonary critical care fellow. i deal with cancer all the time. dont ask people for data. if you lack knowledge, then go do some reading.

  71. sam77
    August 26, 2006 9:44pm

    I find it So ironic that you being a doctor, are telling Uzma03 that SHE asa doctor should know better. I"ve specialized in genetics and although the 'facts' that you may be stating are correct....you don't seem to know enough about the matter to connect the facts together to the reality of the situation. It is true that more than 90 percent who smoke don't get lung cancer, and yet at the same time in most cases of lung cancer, smoking is involved. But does that mean you can say that lifestyle is NOT involved. OF course not...and here is why........ Cancer as you know is when cell growth in the body becomes uncontrolled. NOrmally there are thousands and thousands of enzymes in the human body that regulate cell growth. A defect in any one of them could lead to cancer. Now some people are MORe predisposed to cancer than others because of their genetic makeup (I"m not going into the nitty gritty details because no one other than who has studied this subject will know what i"m talking about, but if you want to know, then contact me) For those who are predisposed to certain cancers, whether or not their predisposition for cancer will actually develop into cancer has EVERYTHING to do with lifestyle and also explains the discrepency in your facts on smoking. So for you to say to Uzma that she is shallow, incorrect and immature to make a link between lifestyle and cancer is not only extremely self-righteous and arrogant........ it is completely wrong!! I used to go to the gym and their was a girl their who was rather weak looking and who I used to see at the gym everyday. One day I smiled to her and said, "you must really love being at the gym because you are always here when I come" She actually explained to me that she HATES going to the gym, but has been prescribed by her doctor to do so, as well as eat healthy, never smoke and never drink because she is predisposed to a rare cancer (that many in her family have) and that she has not gotten it only because she has kept a healthy lifestyle.

  72. learning
    August 27, 2006 12:58am

    Sam, with all due respect I have to disagree with you there. I think your statement would hold water if there were not such a high rate of cancer in children. How can anyone hold an otherwise healthy 4, 6, or even 10 or 12 year old child guilty of lifestyles that casue cancer? I have seen scores of children in the time I've spent at hospitals who have led very healthy lives prior to being stricken by this disease. Genetically predisposed or not, very few (if any) of these children have done anything outside of healthy diets and activities that anyone could point to and attribute the disease to. I'm not just talking about lung cancer. I've met children with nearly every form of the disease, and have yet to meet a child whose condition was caused by an unhealthy diet or lifestyle. Those who may be genetically predisposed to cancer may practice lifestyles that can reduce their chances of having the disease, but even then the reduction in their chances are minimal. Nothing they do will actually prevent the disease, only slightly reduce the odds that it will occur - unlike a certain behavioral problem that can be prevented and completely cured by making voluntary corrective changes. Chemical dependence is not a disease that hits you out of left field. It's a series of choices that have led to a condition that can be cured by the subsequent correct series of choices. Certainly there are drugs that can help the process, and of course it is a long and difficult, trying road. But in the end, it's up to the person to make the choices they need to make to get back in control. People get addicted to many things, and many times they are the result of emotional and psychological stimuli. The underlying psychological issues may be the problem that caused the dependence, but the dependence itself is not a disease. I have never even heard of anybody calling cigarette addiction a disease. People are seriously addicted to chocolate (not joking), but nobody calls it a disease. They are behavioral issues in which people have either substituted the substance for a shortcoming in their lives, or have not practiced the control and/or self-restraint they are capable of. That's my final input on this subject, as what started as a discussion (in which I remained civil in) has turned to vicious finger pointing, rhetoric, labeling, and insinuations by Uzma03. If people want to get mean over this, that's up to them. I'm done with this entire topic.

  73. attorney786
    August 27, 2006 1:00am

    I apologize, a friend of mine was logged in on a computer i was using, and she forgot to log out. The post by Learning was meant to be by me. Thanks.

  74. Sahadat
    August 27, 2006 5:58am

    I think the discussion about whether cancer has to do with lifetsyle is off-topic. The issue that kicked it off was whether alcoholism is a disease. It's quite simple - alcoholism is an addiction. Just like nicotine addiction. Or crack addiction. All very serious conditions, no doubt. Lung cancer is a disease, very often a consequence of nicotine addiction. Just as liver disease is very often a consequence of an addiction to alcohol. It strikes me that this isn't really an argument about terms - we know what they are - you just need a dictionary. It's an argument about personal responsibilities. Can an alcoholic stand up and say, "I am not responsible for my addiction!"? I would say no. He can say he is not responsible for the diseases he may suffer as a result of his addiction, but, if he is to defeat his addiction, he must take responsibility for it.

  75. llkoolj
    August 27, 2006 6:21am

    Its good to know we have a lot of experts on Naseeb. However, can we respectfully disagree? Why do we have to belittle others for having a different opinion or being "wrong"? Pretty much on most"Ask Naseeb questions", either the person posing the question gets shredded to pieces or the responders do it to each other. No wonder, when relationships dont work out its always the other persons fault and we are all pure gold.

  76. salsadoc
    August 27, 2006 12:51pm

    though i maintain my opinion of what uzma03 wrote, i must apologize for my lack of manners while voicing it. i had no right to make derogatory remarks. by know means do i think uzma03 is immature, i dont even know her.

  77. Tounuscan
    August 27, 2006 1:27pm

    Hmmm off Topic? hehehehe Jamal! Bro! Come on... This have very little to do with Cancer, u know this eh? but the sister even say that the mans possible problem were no issue here also. She say they try to get him to rehab but he will no go. This make it other non issue... Gonna ignore the ones who talk on cancer cause they only intellectualize problem that have no thing to do with subject. Really for sure no gonna know why they no taked it private afore it start so big... But Jamal! Bro! u start so good but end so rough. Toun have hart that broke now bro... U letted the Tounster down.. sigh

  78. sam77
    August 27, 2006 4:13pm

    Thanks for disagreeing respectfully, unlike my way of disagreeing with salsadoc, for which I must apologize as well. My bad!! Learning, agreed that there are children who have cancer and so one can't say its becuase of lifestyle there. You can't for a second believe that what I was saying is that lifestyle is the ONLY factor thatt leads to cancer!? A person can have the healthiest lifestyle on the planet, yet if God wills, they will develop cancer. There are so many uncontrollable factors that can lead to cancer, but we can't do anything about that. So then why not do something about those factors which ARE in our control!? That was my point.... Anyways, again Salsadoc, in saying that you were arrogant in talking arrogantly to Uzma is arrogant in itself :P My apologies once again........ I think Sahadat said it best......

  79. uzma03
    August 27, 2006 5:53pm

    - TOUNUSCAN: I understand this Muslimah has genuine concerns. I also understand that somewhere in this thread, she mentioned that her friend has decided to stay with her husband because he had a mild heart attack. Seems the issue, only for now, is resolved. My comment was directed to ATTORNEY786. He was trying to explain diabetes to me. However, I see patients with diabetes every single day. My point to him was that a lawyer trying to explain diabetes to a doctor is analogous to an engineer explaining tomatoes to a chef or a construction worker explaining hair dye to a hairdresser. Now, Im not saying that an engineer doesnt know about tomatoes or a construction worker doesnt know about hair dye. Rather, my point was that you better know your audience and you better know what you are talking about if you are going to tell someone who is acquainted with a topic what that topic means. I would never tell ATTORNEY786 what the law says about consequences of drunk driving unless I knew darn well knew what they were. Quite frankly, that is not my area of expertise, so I would defer something like that to him - and I recognize that. INSPIRATIONAL: Thanks for providing the Harvard report on cancer prevention. Nice article. SALSADOC: I never said that people with cancer can be blamed for their illness. I was making a link between certain diseases and lifestyle choices, the point being that we do have some power of prevention in our own hands. Examples: skin cancer from UV light exposure, cancers of the mouth, throat, lungs, cervix from smoking, endometrial cancer from obesity, et cetera. My comment about data was again directed to ATTORNEY786 purely in the context of labeling alcoholism as a disease, not in the context of cancer. Anyhow, from one professional to another, your apology is appreciated. SAM77: I appreciated your reference to apoptosis and oncogenes. (I think those are the right terms, but if I'm not let me know!) ATTORNEY786: You do make a valid point about cancer in children being from non-environmental merits. But if you look at the 2002 data provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) www.cdc.gov and www.cdc.gov2002/facts_major_findings.htm , you will see that children as a whole population have an overall lower incidence of cancer than adults as a whole population. Since I feel you misinterpret what I write, let me clarify and confirm that this does not mean that children or anyone for that matter deserves cancer or can be blamed for their illness. The data seem to imply that people who are in an age range in which they are capable of making lifestyle choices have a higher incidence of cancer. Also, let me clarify that nothing in medicine is one hundred percent, and there are and always will be exceptions. Its possible you volunteered at a cancer ward at a childrens hospital, so all you saw there was kids with cancer. Ive worked on the hematology/oncology floor of the Childrens Hospital here - so, yes, all I saw was cancer, but its always the same few kids who keep coming in as well. The point being that even children can get cancer without relation to lifestyle choices, but as a population as a whole, they still have a lower incidence of cancer than adults. I think EVERYBODY in this thread has acknowledged that the cessation of alcohol is a difficult process and the decision to do so lies within the individual himself. That should just be put to rest now, as it is no longer the topic at hand. The topic at hand is whether chemical addiction (not cancer) is a disease. My stance was that some people are predisposed to addiction based on genetics and a link to certain mood disorders. Also, these are the same people who have known disorders related to impulse control. So, linking all that together, my point was that alcoholism is a disease. I NEVER finger-pointed or labeled anyone within this thread (go back to my posts). I NEVER accused YOU of judging anyone. I actually just went back and reviewed our posts. I understood we were having a healthy debate (were being the operative word I had no idea some people get so defensive). I dont know how you deciphered my arguments and references to be vicious finger pointing, rhetoric, and insinuations. Go back to my posts and tell me where you got that from I am happy to review it. Rather, your outburst in your post Inspirational, Uzma03 - read my posts more carefully sparked my response Show me the data. Sweetheart, dont dish it if you cant receive it! Heres the bottom line. I NEVER said you werent entitled to your opinion. We all are entitled to our opinions. My argument to you was that I am a scientist and I have seen data to support that alcoholism is a disease, some of which I provided. I merely invited you to share data with me to prove your point to me. You, of all people, should understand the importance of evidence. Yet, seeing as the only data you have provided is perseverance to your statement that alcoholism is not a disease as well as an extremely defensive attitude, I still cannot agree with you that alcoholism is not a disease. But I guess that doesnt matter to you as you are done with this entire topic" without having provided any supporting data. So much for a healthy debate and respectful disagreeing!

  80. Tounuscan
    August 27, 2006 7:11pm

    Tho u speak very true, why tell a farmer how to cut the wheat when the one who tell is automacanic, To discuss diabetes in this forum it no very appropriate. May for true see ayesha friend to say "Huh"? when that one happen.. The conversates have be more confused for all others accause 1,2 and 3 of u take it on u self to make the nuts mixed! Scuse pls but when topicals be Preservation of Wilderness beasts it only fair just and good manners to ask permissions to change it to latest hair style and cuticle removers, eh? Was no only on u but all others who take in they own mind to have free discussions where limits were already setted.. salam

  81. t-dog
    August 28, 2006 8:50am

    The entire human race has been contributing to cancer-causing pollutants. I think this is what I was saying before. And no one seems to be suggesting that one person's lifestyle over another's is the sole reason for getting cancer, although this could also be a probable cause for some cancers (see cervical cancer). However, with all the trash we put in the air, in our foods, in our bodies period these days it is little wonder we are experiencing cancers. Thus, in this regard it is our collective faults.

  82. Ayesha72
    September 1, 2006 1:37pm

    Just thought I would post an update... I'm glad to say her husband has made arrangements to check himself into REHAB on Monday for a three month period... Thanks for all the advice:)

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