12Nov/07
Marrying Back Home
I have seen that a lot of Muslim men date Muslim girls in America and then go home and get married to women back home.
e="text-align: justify;">If that was their intentions in the first place then why date women here? Some people believe that a desi spouse will adjust better but I feel that they only think and do this because a person from back home might not be aware of their history.
Why such weird standards?
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Nile Memon
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December 4, 2007 6:16pm
when is this question going to change? i've riled people up...made up... had a group hug..even quoted the quran... really... i'm running out of ways to entertain for free on behalf of naseeb...
December 4, 2007 8:20pm
Y are only fob-rooted converts hating my comments lol no wonder. Its because a girl like me would never even waste her spit on you in real life so to satisfy your ego all you can do is bash me online lol poor soul. Whatever makes you happy haha. Next time if the question comes how do cows do $hit and you answer it ill assume you came out of cows $hit, because in order to answer or argue you need to experience it hahaha the most pathetic assumption of yours. No suprise it also came from a fob-rooted convert.lol, Just admit it you dont have the ball$ to win. Sorry Im BLUNT. Learn to respect women otherwise someone like me will tear ur ego apart. You reap what you sow. And I thank God that not all guys are the same from here or backhome that are mentioned in the question. Those girls were sweet who you dated and misused. Thank God you never came across your match. Because some girls dont take $hit from guys and know how to hurt their male ego big time.
December 4, 2007 12:36pm
I emphasize with you. Some do it out of real concerns. While rest have an exaggerated & perverted sense of entertainment. I would suggest window shopping before committing to anything.
December 4, 2007 1:15pm
Simply put....people seem to be carrying far too much emotional baggage well before steeping into relationships and try to look anwyhere else but inward for solutions. Pointing at others is always the stop-gap way of escaping reality and our own flaws. Hopefully, this meaningless toothpick warfare of words will cease and may better sense prevail. Ultimately, if we use the right criteria to judge ourselves and others, life wouldn't be as bad as it seems, let alone marriage. Frankly speaking, if at all one were to find an ideal person with proven good traits like being sincere, honest, pious, modest and so on; BUT if he/she lacked in the 'looks' department, I'd assume a large majority of people wouldn't really give them a fair chance or even consider them as a potential spouse. So it just might be sensible to restructure our thinking to fit reality, than try to alter reality to fit our thinking. Dinastrange- castration: "I also feel that some of Muslim men just need to be castrated. That will make life easier for them and for the women they want to pursue....So, i suggest some of muslim men should consider it :)" So!...are we to assume that you prefer a castrated man? ;) Also which 'oriental expert' have you been reading for such 'real' facts? If it's the one on FOX NEWS or CNN? I believe you..completely! Disclaimer: The above comments are purely the opinion of an over-caffeinated brain. So,Please don't sue me, please! :(
December 4, 2007 12:08am
ok here's the catch, basically desi guys are desi you know, they have family pressures back home and a bit conservative culture so when they suddenly find themselves in an 'independent' environment, then their happiness or azadi knows no bounds...haha, funny but true. The point is how to segregate these paendoo as*** from the real original ones who really are good enough so as not to mess up on both the sides..so make sure you know who is who around you!
December 4, 2008 5:31pm
Men chase women they have no intentions of marrying....for the same reason dogs run after cars they have no intention of driving.....because they can.
November 22, 2007 11:31am
Aliya06 said: "Badmaash007, I'm thinking its an odd day when a monster and a badmaash are concurring my posts ..... lol" And they say a person is known by his/her friends. ;) Welcome to the club! You just got to be more creative with your nickname. :)
November 22, 2007 11:37am
Dinastrange, Sorry to hear abt your experiences. However, if that makes you turn into a b%$# then you are at fault.
November 22, 2007 2:53pm
My point is a little side track, I was talking to this friend of mine and she said she knew a couple who got married than in few months the wife got sick. They found out she had to have an operation and couldn't have children. The guy seemed like the perfect person, so kind and friendly with everyone. He was fine with wife not having a kid at first. Than as time went, he changed. He started fighting with her, wouldn't let her go out or anywhere. She was alone in this state she moved too after marriage. Had no one. She was going through treaments and he use to abuse her. He cut off her cell phone everytime they had a fight so she couldn't call anyone. He didn't want her talking to his friends cuz they would find out how he was. Than he just kicked her out of his house as soon as she was done with her treatments. He has filed for divorce now. First she had the shock of having cancer, than not having kids and to top it all of her husband left her. I think he lives in Boston. He comes from a very religious family and they were mean to the girl too. She was going through treatments and they use to tell him to kick her out. What happen to for better or worse? No matter how much a guy has lived abroad and how liberal he is he still has an old fashion thinking. What can you tell about a guy who can't commit? takes a marriage like a joke. Would a girl ever do that if she found out the husband can't have kids? I don't think so.
November 21, 2007 2:19am
the reason is very simple because mostly their family is back home. they want to very obident to their mothers and think their wives should only be from back home. they are very attached to their families. they think if they marry here, their mothers will be unhappy from them. usually guys want to marry n their own caste system. its strange, how these guy sometimes dont even meet the girl and get married. i know someone, who did the same thing. did not wana marry a girl because she was not from his caste system. so girls who think their potentials have that frame of mind, please dont go for such guys becausein the end , there will be only regret and tears.
November 21, 2007 4:08am
I know I am a bit late, but I will share some thoughts :) I think the question has been answered a few times over about why men & women decide to go back to their homelands to get married. There are a multitude of reasons, and each person has different motivations. I believe that when one chooses a partner to get married to, character is the biggest thing we must look for (as both Aliya & Umber amongst others have mentioned). Both men and women can be equally as superficial as eachother and no one is directly to blame for this trend in marrying back home.. It really should not be an issue, as we muslims look for the right things in a partner when getting married. We as humans tend to complicate things and add more drama than is needed to certain situations. When I was looking for a marriage partner, I had criteria that the person had to meet, being God fearing, responsible, honest, loving were some of the things I had on top of my list. There was no room for degrees, salary or social status on my list. When I begun my search (putting myself out there in terms of actively looking and letting family know etc) I knew exactly what I could bring to the partnership.. Being presentable, educated and trying to improve as a Muslim were some things I thought I could offer my future partner. As I met people (through rishtas etc) one question kept coming up from the all guys (both men back home and in Western countries).. Will you be able to provide for me? Can you cook? Will you stay home with the kids? Will you help take care of my parents? Unbelieveably when I met my husband to be, he was astonished that being a 3rd generation non desi born, I was able to agree to all those things. Now, I am not saying that all men want these traits, but all men I encountered do.. If as a woman you do not want to agree to them, that is fine, but once you realise that your values don't match, move on...Same goes for men. For example; It is unreasonable to ask a woman to stay at home with the kids if the man's income is not enough to live on and the woman must work. It is also unreasonable to not cook a meal, if you are a stay at home wife(with no kids).. I am no doormat, but nothing gives me more pleasure than helping my husband to be..whether that be through cooking or just listening to how his day has been.. In return I get unconditional love and support with my goals, studies and career. Marriage is a partnership, its not about you, or him or her, it should always be about 'us'. I am certainly not a tradionalist, however I really do feel that we do infact NEED companionship. Women can earn money, mow the lawn, paint the walls and even make babies on their own these days..the reason we NEED men is because it's so much nicer sharing these things with someone you love and someone who loves you back..
December 24, 2007 8:23am
Nile, If I have to answer your question in one word? That word would be "hypocracy." However, the matter does not end here, nor it is as simple as it seems. Women are as much guilty as men are. Why go out with a man knowing, he will end up marrying in his country of origin? Our, sub-continental people's, dilema is that we grow up and live in bollywood world (not blaming indo-pakistani films by any means). Our problem is that we use "dating" as means of getting together, going out, eating, watching movies, or as we say in Pakistan - ishq-mashooqi. :-) What we fail to utilise dating as, is to KNOW the person. What his/her ideas about life, are? What does he/she thinks about children, marriage, financial matters, culture, and most importantly mutual compatibility. I agree, first couple of dates are for "salaamz" and clearing the air of hesitation. However, by the fourth or fifth date, an intelligent person can have a fair idea where this relationship is heading, and should be used as a making or breaking point. Lingering on further results in the situations like we are in now; questioning the authenticity, and morality of sub-continental men and women. I totally agree with Ash707; this situation is like a double edged knife that cuts both ways. Women are as guilty as men are. I have seen situations where a father said to his daughter, "Kaaki Ay Wiah Naee hosakda." And Kaaki said, "okay daddy." Now what to do with the guy; who has given Kaaki, his whole mind, body, soul, and life? I know, some men are smiling while reading this post. Please keep your teeth in... I have also seen situations where a mother said to his son, "Hai Way Munnia, Hun Too Ghaar They Which Gori Lakey Aaing Gaa?" And Munna said, "Naeen Baibay, Teri Khushi Meri Khushi Aay." Six months later, poor Gori knocks on Munna's door just to see a Desi Punjaban answering from the other side. My point is; a good swimmer always checks the water before jumping into the pool. ;-)
November 27, 2007 1:34am
Assalamu3laikum, I think part of the problem is that most of our women in modern day society unfortunately think with the feministic mindset. The end result: most of us muslim men are turned off and go to look overseas. I had looked at a few prospects here in the states and the end result was that no matter how sweet, or how good of an upbringing they were brought up into, they still think feminism is the correct way to think. Islam is better than that and we don't need feminism to "better our societies". As a matter of fact, it is more destructive than constructve. There are clear guidelines about the woman's role in the household (Im not being Chauvenistic, but this is Islam). Until these feministic thoughts/practices are purged, there will be no way that serious men would be willing to look for a muslim prospect here. With understanding and education, these issues can be resolved. Don't misunderstand me: it is quite possible that some of these men are looking to fool around before settling down. These bastards shouldn't get off easily either. However, it is important to ensure that we don't give those creeps any excuses or reasons for their behaviour. Jazakallah 7'airan and Allah Hafiz.
November 14, 2007 11:49am
Guys go after good looks and women after money. So in the end all marriages are between a very shallow rich guy and a pretty gold digger??
November 14, 2007 1:55am
I dont think its thier own history that they care to hide. A lot of my friends got into arranged marriages and were only too willing to share the details of thier past relationships with their wives. I think its just human perception of thinking "the grass is greener on the other side" that takes them back home. I dont think its seeking purity that takes them back, cause that can be found here. But its the complete package of family ties, references, mommy's pressure, and above all its easy (and we all know how lazy men are!). I always wonder if such people do actually find the happiness that they were seeking in life. Its just a question of: "Do couples from different cultures find marital bliss?" Cause at the end of the day such people are marrying into completely different cultures. And rememeber it isnt just about getting married. Its about being happily married :-) There was only just this once that I saw a very extreme case when a guy went to "visit" his parents and came back married while he was already seeing a girl in the West. This girl and guy had met through Naseeb. The big question is...... Is a website like naseeb aggravating the situation?
November 14, 2007 4:36am
Why are we talking smack about each other? Quarreling is only going to make us weak. ABCD despise FOB and vice-versa. What is new? I don't think it's doing us any good. We need to get along. I'm sure we can learn from each other. Don't take sides. We have just stumbled to an all-time low! Regardless of your differences, the trend of marrying back home is going to continue. Why wash your dirty linen on a public platform like naseeb? If anyone has a problem of marrying back home... honestly, who cares? No one gives a damn. This will continue. You have that option of marrying back home too. You think you are going to stop it? NO! Move on... Our daily activities like driving, flying & dating all carry a risk of failure and we all are well aware of that fact. Accidents happen all the time. All you can do is reduce the risk of getting hurt. So how when you drive... you wear a seatbelt, when you fly... you fly a good airline and when you date... you should make good decisions. It takes two to clap so stop bashing the opposite gender. Both parties are equally responsible so stop the whinning. No one wins. Accept responsibilty, ask for forgiveness, LEARN and MOVE ON! Good guys will hopefully find good girls and vice versa. Karma is a b.... so have faith. If you don't want your bf/gf to leave you then save the fun for marriage. If a person during dating is enjoying the same benefits of a marriage then why would someone marry you? Hopefully this will keep your bf/gf from marrying back home. I agree not all people are innocent back home or here. So pick wisely. Everyone makes mistakes and nobody can claim to be a saint. Learn to forgive. Repeating the same relationship mistakes again is dumb so avoid it. Please don't increase the divorce rate. Communicate with your partner. It's already 33% percent. 1 in 3 muslim marriages end in a divorce... SCARRYYY!
November 14, 2007 12:00am
Choosa I am quite surprised by the sweeping generalisations you have made in your "top rated" advice. ..........."The environment most Pakistanis in Pakistan grow up in is one in which a woman, despite her level of education, is expected to adopt a housewife like attitude where the 'husband is always right'"......... This may be true in a village in NWFP or interior Sindh, but thats certainly not the case "despite the level of education". Urban educated Pakistani women are quite aware of their rights. Infact the quality of life is much better than their western counterparts, as the husbands take care of their wives financially, physically and emotionally. They dont expect their wives to contribute their salaries to the household and provide the wives with domestic help. In addition, these women do have a say in matters of the home, family and life in general. So quite frnakly its quite a priviliged life these wives lead in Pakistan. Coming to the issue of why desi guys marry backhome that is generally because one is more comfortable in the culture they have grown up in. Watching hindi flicks and paying rare visits to Pakistan or eating Biryani at home, doesnt make a girl "eastern" per se. Similarly a guy who lands in America and adopts westernised lifestyle doesnt really become western. Its not about the east being good and the west being bad, its just a matter of different cultural mindsets. e.g an American raised girl would not appreciate cricket matches, rooh afza, would not recall old PTV dramas, would not talk about chaand raat adventures etc etc. More importantly Urdu will not be her first language and thats a BIG thing. We are always more comfortable in our first language and we wish to keep it alive, we even enjoy colloquial humor and poetry of Urdu. Now in all fairness an ABCD wont have that. This is why the guys go back home to marry. Now you'd ask, why do they date ABCDs then? Well dating isnt always for marriage, its for fun! Which is why Islam forbids dating.
November 13, 2007 11:42pm
Do you even know what goes on back home? Why does everyone assume that the girls back home are innocent? They start wearing makeup when they're five. A twelve year old can lie and manipulate better than a thirty year old from America. The clothing worn by women over there is so tight that the hoochs from US wouldnt touch. I was sitting in a large cafeteria like restaurant and noticed something very impressive that I don't even notice in America. The entire restaurant was only filled with couples approximately 60-80 couples. No families just couples, with and without burkas. I don't think all of them were husbands and wives, there were many you could just tell they were dating by the way they were flirting. While you shop the shop keepers the way they talk to you is pretty flirtatious. Not only that but some even married ones tried to hit on me. So I decided for knowledge purposes to interview them. They explained how they take their business cards and give them out to young girls in rixas. They have wives at home but they have special rooms upstairs in their shops where they make out with these very young girls. After talking to my cousins they told me how naive and innocent girls from America are. Girls there if they're not getting guys they are certainly experimenting with one another. I mean think about it drugs in these countries are widely available without prescriptions. You can self medicate, do what ever the hell you want especially if you have money. There is no law or order, the cops stop you for a ticket and you can speed off, youre in your car and them on their bicycle. Money in that country buys you anything. Women there lie about their age and have fake birth certificates a dime a dozen or should I say a rupee a dozen. Women have had abortions and gotten married to guys from America. Further more some are so manipulative that they get their husbands to buy them more and more gold and at the same time have him support her entire family back home. And the best part is it's with big money too because the morons don't know how big the dollar is and how cheap people live there and what they send per month is enough to last six months there. A bank balance here and a bank balance there. And there is no love, these women are materialistic and don't give a sh** and sometimes take off with a different guy few years down the road.
November 13, 2007 7:04pm
lol thas funny well guys r pretty dumb cuz back home is worst i seen it and know many people back home. i guess u get wut u deserve in this case
November 12, 2007 9:57am
1) because these men believe that american women are good for having fun but not good enough to get married to 2) their mothers believe that too 3) and i can't stress this enough, they are completely ignorant to the fact that the girls back in the motherland are not as sweet, simple and innocent as these guys think they are. have you been back there? as an american desi muslim, i am thoroughly disgusted by the way the youth in muslim countries are acting. i feel that we here have a better understanding and a better way of living when it comes to dating/marriage. i am basing this belief on the fact that people, boys and girls, in the motherland are shocked when they find out that girls and guys here are actually modest! i'm sure we've all encountered a person like that...amazed that there are actually americans who believe in following the right path. unfortunately, the culture of the US outweighs what we say. but at the same time, bollywood isn't squeeky clean either. it's all a matter of perception
November 13, 2007 6:48pm
Khalidatx: women back home are *way* better at handling men all while giving the appearance of "being handled". They grow up in a society where women cannot get power by direct means so have to get it indirectly -- through manipulation, power plays, whinging, politics, etc -- all while prettily batting their eyelashes. I've seen several guys my age marry women 10 years younger..and within 1-2 years of marriage..those girls have the guys wrapped around their fingers.... But most men are so high on themselves..so macho..they they cannot conceive of the idea of being manipulated by a girl almost half their age... The clever desi woman is the one who controls her husband while letting him *think* he's "in charge". It is all about massaging the male ego... Ignorance is bliss.
November 13, 2007 5:31pm
After reading some of the comments here, I just wanted to inform some people on naseeb that if a muslim guy and muslim girl BOTH do haram things before marriage, then they EQUALLY deserve the blame and have sinned in the eyes of Allah (swt). Many females here are just blaming the guys for "using" girls in relationships. But, muslim girls deserve blame for letting these scumbag muslim guys "use" them in the first place. A muslim girl should know that unless a man approaches her wali and officially puts a ring on her finger, then she cannot do anything with him (dating or relations, etc..). There is no excuse to go against Islam, and you can't pass blame to someone else for one's own consensual actions. And also, you should realize that not "all" muslim guys are bad and are players. Most of the muslim guys I know are pious brothers who fear Allah (swt), and the unmarried ones want to find a sharif spouse. Seriously, the blanket man hating on this website is a little sickening.
December 16, 2007 1:12am
Nonono.. only that the pots have many dents, (personal problems), and some they missing handles, (1 or 2 shy of 6 pack).. It good to talk that ways like u gonna cook. U could make very good dish or u be just lazy and go to McD's. If u go to McD's u get what they serve and do not have much choice, but if u make u own than u know what u get. McD guys always go for the dating. The best ones are home cooked. Salam
November 13, 2007 5:19pm
It would be nice if we can some really honest answers from guys who think about this or who have actually done this, that way we can know why. One reason though, if we choose to, we can give the benefit of the doubt to some men. Some men truly look for someone here w/ sincere intentions but just cant find anyone so they end up going home. Or some may actually change (sincerely w/in) and want someone of the same culture. Sometimes being young and growing up here, you don't realize the negative affects of certain behaviors can lead to until you experience them and analyze them after the fact. As for the guys who do play around and just have fun w/ no intention of getting married to them, I really wish they could see and understand the damage it does to these women. It destroys her heart, her self esteem and self respect. While women have ownership in this to stay away from guys like this, I wish guys would take MORE ownership in protecting women from this as well.
November 21, 2007 12:18pm
True, Nomecapone....I know someone in my family circles who owns/manages a 3million $ business in India, supervises 300 plus employees, raises a family of 3, cooks and cleans and travels on business to UK and Germany and far-east almost on a monthly basis. She is barely 35, completely educated in India. She could talk the talk and walk the walk, when it comes down to business or whatever she feels is right and achievable. Not a superwoman or supermom, just someone who is well educated and has a definite idea on what she wants out of life. There are many more like her, if you care to look with an open mind. So this whole notion that girls back home are demure little creatures, sitting holed up in little rooms waiting to be choosen by some super-dude american desi groom is just biased and juvenile at best. Lately I have even noticed that a majority of desi parents try and avoid imported 'Phoren' grooms for thier kids, simply becos there are too many unknowns, plus there are equally good or better options in thier own countries.
November 13, 2007 9:16am
Just because you might have experienced a couple of instances of guys getting married to girls from desi land doesn't mean it's a common practice. Your whole story is nothing but a generalization.
November 13, 2007 2:25pm
Ok...First off, Desi women do the same thing too..so don't pin this on the guys. I am getting awfully sick and tired of desi men being blamed for all that is evil in the world when there are some desi girls out there who need to stand up and take some responsibility. As to why desi guys date here and then Maybe marry there...well its all about options. I volunteer as a firefighter...and when i enter a burning building, i know that if it all goes to bollocks, i am going to need to have a backup plan ready to go at a drop of a hat. Now while i use this to save my skin in my professional line of work and not my personal i can see how some guys use the women in Pakistan as their "in case of emergency" back up plan. Desi women do it too. Both genders can be accused of being "passport donors" to people back in the old country. Its just that certain desi guys tried it out over here, probably didnt like what they were dating, and decided to revert back to tradition. Its a free country as long as you do it the gentlemans way and not leave anyone over here hanging.
December 11, 2007 10:16pm
lol.........j/k......... well seems like we are master of stereo typing. There are all kind of people in this world so what is the big deal if some guys (not all) prefer to go back home to get married. Plus ABCDs and FOBs act like oil and water so if they can't socialize togather why do we expect them to merry each other.
December 11, 2007 11:34pm
CoolestPaki.... great comments ;)...... Kudos Dinastrange in your comments you said "The only purpose of man now is to have sex with a woman....they successfully delegated making money to women" then you are saying "What kills me of Muslim idiotic men is when they find a girl they match with on all levels and yet that idiot goes back home and marries a girl" So one hand u r saying they are looking for women who are making money then contradicting the statement by saying they leave such woman and merry back home to a girl who is potentially going to be a house wife or won't atleast be able earn much in near future :).
December 11, 2007 11:53pm
Has anyone pondered the reverse of this question? this 'bizzare' phenomena of guys going over to marry in far-off ignorant lands strewn with dumb unsuspecting girls...when they can in fact find intelligent, independent, confident, highly educated, virtous women right here. On the flipside, why do many desi girls date non-desi guys in the prime of thier youth without wanting to marry them, and eventually decide to find a 'nice' desi guy to settle down with? So, is there hypocrisy on both sides? Which I think is the case. If so how could things be made better for all concerned. Disclaimer: I have no idea who wrote this...I think its that little voice in my head....
November 13, 2007 7:59am
I think your question doesnt make sense/logic. Every thing happened with reason. You should find the reason. Maybe our ABCD women/girls cant give some things/qualities to their husband thats reason they preferred from back home. you have too choice from here or from back home.
December 10, 2007 6:43pm
okay let me shed some light on this subject. I have met alot of paki men and it seems that they all want one thing which they never got. Sex... They all wanted a side dish here and than go back home and marry a dum village girl that they can control. My dad is the only exception Ma Shalla and two of his best friends that are " true" men. My mom is Italian and they have been married MA shalla for 36 yrs and my dad Ma Shalla has been the best husband ever to my mom. He bends over backwards for her especially when she is sick. Where can you find a good paki guy like that? No where. I am tired of hearing oh well my dad made me and he set it up or I had no say. Yeah right.. When I was 19 my dad tried to get me to mary a half cousin and I stood up to him and told him I was not marrying a stranger. I would marry for love like he did. My dad is a Pathan and I stood up to him. Why can't anyone else? Not all Paki men are like this but it is sad to say that alot are. No not all of us women over here are "easy" and go out and do every guy that walks. No. The thing is that some of the paki men sweet talk us promise to love us and marry us and than that is how they rope us in. Once that happens they leave you high and dry and run back home and marry a village women. Nevermind that they tore someone's heart out for no reason at all back here. So before anyone judge's this women or why she wrote this look to yourself and think am I perfect? Am I really and truly a good guy? No one is perfect but don't assume that it is because we are easy that these men leave and marry a village girl..... Khuda Hafiz... Moral: " Don't do unto others if you don't want it done to you".....
December 9, 2007 9:58pm
Ladies, I dont see how this question will help you. But being one of the UNCULTURED, LOWLY, NARROW-MINDED FOB convert (I may have forgotten some choice words used on this forum), who is on the verge of doing almost the same, I would like to answer this question for you. Firstly, This question and a lot of comments on the forum assume we know exactly who we are going to marry.Surprise! we don't have that super natural power. we don't have our love life planned to the end. so if you want to marry one of us don't give us a reason to do otherwise. From my personal experience you give us more than plenty of reasons to look elsewhere. so here go a some (these are from a FOBish point of view but I think most guys would agree) 1. If a guy is being nice to you. It doesnt mean he is a sissy or is patronizing you. But if my westernized sisters meet someone who treats them according to our tehzeeb and deen they consider it a sign of weakness. If you dont respect someone dont expect them to spend a life time with you. 2. We the brown guys aren't born to be a backup for you. If you partied around during your college don't come looking for a desi guy to take care of you when you turn 27. I met some very nice girls during my couple of years over here; but once I got to know their history and the baggage they were carrying; i just wasnt broadminded and enlightened enough to go all the way. So if you think desi guys arent attractive enough try finding a husband among the guys who you flirted around with; don't come running to unattractive, fat, balding guys from the east after you have been used and abused by your prince charming and dont blabber on this forum either. 3. (It is FOB specific) No self respecting man will ever marry you for the green card or whatever papers you have. Corporate America is willing to do that in return of our brainpower, we dont need to ruin our life for this piece of paper. Dont expect a man to return your calls, if during a conversation you implied he wants to marry you coz you were born in US. These were my reasons; and btw If someone says "hamare khayalat nahin milte" and so on; its a mohazab (decent) way of saying F@$koff and doesn't give you the license to flood my inbox and voicemail. Lastly, men are not evil. We think differently but we are not inherently bad as most of girls over here think we are.
December 8, 2007 6:51pm
lol this is so funny!!!! and please no one get married on shaddi.com that for loosers lolzzzzz
December 8, 2007 9:50pm
ALLAH swt has given us all humans a brain, use it and you will be thankful. Why is that we are creating further divisions among our community when we already have enough holes to patch? Consider people as humans, man and woman, and you will get the answer from within. Aren't we Muslims already disgraced enough, although we believe in the ONE and ONLY GOD, his religion and his Messenger? Stop dividing people into Desis, FOBs, ABCDs.. Is anyone from this group superior in the eyes of ALLAH? This mentality of people is the disease that, is and has been for generations a cause for the downfall of civilizations. My simple advice is, if one is deceived by another human, he/she has himself/herself to blame. He/She made an error in judgement. You didn't use your head before committing yourself to the other person, now you cry upon deception. Stop dividing, blaming or calling people by names, you are hurting the community. Remember, ALLAH considers us all equal until the Day of Judgement when we shall be divided into "Believers" and "Non-believers" and "Good" and "Bad", and only ALLAH knows what group each of us will be in. I am no saint, I am only a normal human being who makes mistakes like you do. I try and use my brain.
November 21, 2007 12:06pm
its pretty obvious that women are different from both sides of the globe. The ones back home are less exposed to the wicked things in this land of amerikkka. You are comparing a islamic 3rd world country to the united states. Girls in the states are known to be wild,loose,open,social,materialisti c,arrogant,snobby, these are all facts that majority of girls hold these traits. Reason why girls back home are better than 'most' here is beacause the way of life is different. The family structure is different. Even parents are not up to par here..they think their kids are living the same way as they grew up and with the same thoughts/habits. In the end, the women back in pakistan still over weight in being better than the ones here. Women here are victims to the american dream.
December 8, 2007 4:24pm
Are you then implying that the pots and pans here have too many lids or handles as you put it. After all pots are pots ....and they do come in all shapes and sizes; and it's not always the best ones that shine too bright. Well then, I hope you're cooking adventures go well and if in the end you can't bake good bread, let them eat cake. :) Umm...did that make any sense at all? I think not. WOh'EVAAA!!!
December 8, 2007 4:45pm
Tis true..there is personally expressed bitterness on both sides (and in between) My thing is that..well..life need not be complicated.. so much angst in life is unnecessary.. Just be an adult, know who you are, be honest with yourself and others about what you want, and act according to a coherent system of values.. And then you won't get hurt or hurt others....for the most part.. We can't entirely control who we like... and everyone prefers a different relationship dynamic... that's fine.. True, we do learn along the way..make mistakes.. whether you prefer a fabulous FOBette...or an amazing ABCD...well that's a guy's perogative.. As long as in the moment..given the information you have about yourself, your situation, your responsibilities and limitations, your strengths.. you make the best decision you can make...and are honest about it.. That is all anyone can ask of anyone else.. things change...feelings change..circumstances change.. promises sometimes are made with good intentions and cannot be followed through on.. No one will fault that (at least I won't) The issue is when there is deliberate manipulation or dishonesty..I think that would get anyone's goat... as framed in this question... the "when it was their intention in the first place..(to marry back home)..why date women here?"
December 8, 2007 4:48pm
Why didn't someone ask if Thanksgiving is haraam OR If you eat only zabiha..what do you do if invited for Thanksgivng by a nonmuslim and you get turkey served on your plate? OR If you have guests who only eat zabiha..do you specially get a zabiha turkey for them? OR If you really prefer turkey...but you spend most of your time eating chicken... is that wrong?..is that food hypocracy? Are you being unfair to the turkey and the chicken or only to one? If so..to which one?
December 8, 2007 10:54am
Answer is always in front of u face. They have tried the wares where they are and found them lacking. The pots have too many dents and most of the pans they missing the handles. The go back to the old country to find a better one that will no wear down so easy that they always need the holder to do the cooking with. salam
December 8, 2007 4:15pm
Today i came to naseeb after a long time n this question really caught my eye. I also read all the advice n really i wasnt surprised wid all the viciousness. Like first of all sleepin around before marriage is a sin to begin with. Secondly, why preach somthin u dont practice. Like guys be judgin gurls for sleepin around when they do the same sht themselves. Like u arent really any different. Marriage is a commitment by goin bac home is pure hypocrisy espeacially since u arent honest wid the gurl yr gonna marry. Like there was this situation where this guy went home got married since he already had played around n wanted to settle down. He gets married n has one child wid his wife. Later on they found out that all three of them are HIV positive. Three lives ruined one of an innocent child. Like u can play around but god will always punish u for yr sin whether u are a gurl or boy doesnt matter.So all of these comments about the many wives u guys can have, n white menn black wanna use us is just stupid. We wouldnt be wid them if u people acted like men to begin with.
December 8, 2007 9:04am
I think the questioner is making quite a leap in assuming that was "their intentions in the first place". Simply put, these people tried out American muslim girls and for whatever reason, weren't satisfied. it's true also that there are a whole different sort of "requirements" when dealing with American women - there's a lot of pressure to always be confident, be funny, always keep the girl at ease, not be too nice or doormat-ish, etc etc... whereas you can "go home" and find out that you don't even need to do all that stuff to impress "women at home" - frankly it seems like all you really need is a good job and BAM its ridiculously easy to find a pretty and humble (another thing that's very uncommon in the US) wife.
December 8, 2007 8:56am
this simply makes sense to my logical reasoning: Muslim men who grew up here and live here try their very best in finding a Muslim woman who grew up here and lives here for them to marry as a wife and mother of their children. some men find it hard to find a good woman here to marry because the woman they want might not be religious enough or educated enough or educated enough or not liked enough and not approved by their mother and family as a possible wife candidate...thus, these men go backhome and seek a wife. in addition, some of these Muslim men want someone with a traditional mentality, attitude, and outlook of life (which most women from backhome have) rather than the Muslim woman here. it is REALLY Okay for a man and/or woman to go backhome to find a wife or husband there if they feel better about doing so because I learned from a Marriage lecture workshop that many Muslim men here in America and the western countries after many tries and searching cannot seem to find a good woman with the qualities, strong deen, and good personality that their family like and approve of for them to marry...thus, these women and men who live here in the west go back home and seek to find a spouse there. as long as your intentions are good and islamic in finding a spouse...either here or backhome...may Allah swt allow marriage with someone you want to be married to be a reality since if two people are meant to be wife and husband to each other according to Allah's will and plan, then it will happen naturally. insh'Allah.
December 8, 2007 3:27am
The reason is very simple. When you marry to a woman in Pakistan you know, most likeley, she is not going to bring any bagage with her from the past relationships. The fact is that once you so called, "date" a woman, you take away her innocense and after that most likeley she will always be confused !!! Men easily see that and they don't want to marry them
December 6, 2007 6:06pm
Th87, lots of bitterness indeed but even THAT has its limits. FOR HEAVENS SAKES.........can we have a new question PUH-LEEEEEEEEZZZZZEE :p
December 7, 2007 10:34am
Best.........................Advice .......................Ever!
December 7, 2007 12:21pm
polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory or strongly recommended for a Muslim man to have more than one wife. I know of many men who are married to more that one woman, and i have yet to see the marriage succesful. Even if he is fair, the wives never really taking a liking to each other and even the kids end up the same way. I find it pathetic that someone here is recommeding polygamy when the Prophet actaully advised men to marry one.
December 7, 2007 6:08pm
Will the kind staff at naseeb.com please update the 'Naseeb Vibes' section. WAKE UP foo! You guys are boring 'torturing' me with this old question. You can't run out of questions? Nah... that's not possible. Thanksgiving is done and Christmas is few weeks away so you can't be on vacation. HURRY
December 7, 2007 11:00pm
Just browsing through some of the comments on here....what a bitter bunch we are, the things people are saying about FOBs, ABCDs etc are borne from an inner resentment of something that has happened in their life that has made them a certain way - in truth they have created a story about what happens to nurture the reasons why they might not be meeting the 'right one'. In this story - a victim mentality starts to emerge where one starts to externalize blame to the chauvanistic male, evil mother in laws, 'loose' FOB girls, hypocritical desi males. At the end of it all its YOU who ends up bitter, cynical and depressed. For people who decide to marry girls from Pakistan and vice versa - its their choice, who are we to judge, people who party it up - again their choice - don't sit in judgement . Live life fully, enjoy it and live a life of integrity, love and trust - the rest is in God's hands...if you start noticing yourself to be cynical and untrustful think for a second why anyone would want to be with you. Just be true to yourself, realize how beautiful you are, love yourself and don't worry about other people and how they act - its very very draining and in the end it just nurtures righteous self pity for somethings that may not be working out for you right now.
December 6, 2007 2:28am
Seems like a lot of personally experienced bitterness is being projected onto this discussion, huh?
December 6, 2007 1:03pm
Which way to drivel-central pls.? *This post is beyond rescue now*
December 5, 2007 6:17pm
lol .... Nomecapone ....... that is right. I think MSCANDA was out come of her mom dating a white guy to broader her mind or whatever it broaden ;) and her poor FOB dad didn't even know what hit him. MSCANADA seem to think that she really is MSCANADA that speaks volume of her inferiority complex. Probably she was dissed by some FOB and she just get satisfaction by bashing them. Atleast FOBs know their parent are, you so called broad minded ABCDs are never sure about the, r u ;)
December 5, 2007 7:02pm
MSCANADA4EVA - tt seems like you are confused about this issue as you commented "Coz desi guys are screwing around with white, black, spanish girls throughout HS/college years" but my dear most desis who attend HS/College here are ABCDs, FOBs usually come here after college. Your writing is simply funny ignored the fact that majority of FOBs are not into dating and don't want to merry a gal who is been around too ;) so don't take it personal :) not against you. As far as repecting woman goes in this age and world respect is earned not granted wether some one is guy or a gal. Hoever, whats really confusing is why r u upset, as you mentioned you and most ABCD gals don't like FOBs or want to merry FOBi guys then what the problem. As I see it you are better off FOBs getting married back home. Plus there is another problem FOBi gals are out numbered by FOBi guys, so many of them have no choice but to go back home to find a bride. So unless you want to ammend the rule of 4 wives for men and allow women to have for husbands there will still be this trend. And last but not least most we won't have to put up with the lound mouth like you :P.
December 3, 2007 2:34pm
but, i came across something too irritating to let go: someone on here wrote, "i'm sorry if this sounds chauvinist- but it's islam" it is a statement in reference to a woman's role in the "Household" you don't know what islam is. stop preaching in the name of my faith and soiling it with your ignorance. please exclude your cultural learnings from a faith you obviously know nothing about. a statement that ridiculous cuts against the heart of islam
December 3, 2007 7:30pm
MSCANADA4EVA.......... you comments are pathetic and tells the history of you mentality. Even when you are trying to clarify things you are using comments like "That 'specific' group of guys are fob-rooted converts". I looks like some FOB took you for ride and now your mission is to blame all on FOBs. I know ABCDs who do the same, they date here and go back home to get married. Your complex in not going to take you far.....
December 3, 2007 2:07am
Thanks Aneela, finally someone is making sense.
December 2, 2007 2:46pm
Well said Annela4u, this argument so childish and gross generalization of so called ABCDs or FOBs. It seems that some people and supriority or inferiorty complex based on their birth place instead of their education, actions, faith, and cultural value. Dating is deviation for our cultural and religious value so someone who doesn't have our cultural or religious value how could you expect them to be good :). On a different note dating is like gambing some people win and some people loose and just like lottery mojority is at the loosing end :) so when you play a game where chance of loosing are higher why complain?
December 1, 2007 11:17pm
Aneela4u I totally agree with you
December 2, 2007 2:04pm
It is this mentality of being superior and inferior and being born here or not being born here that adds up all the problem. There are many Desi guys here who are not into dating scene or they try to look for decent muslima but you so called ELITE are so superficial and self absorbed they think being born in north america is a big accomplishment. They forget that either their parents or grand parents were FOB too so do they insult them by calling the same name they use for others? The these ABCD gals like to date, american guys, drink, and dance with stangers and merry desi guy, does that not speack volume of their double standards? The way you have blame everything on FOBs and made ABCDs and Elite tells me how much you know about this issue.
November 21, 2007 12:00pm
As the saying goes...'Men/women are only as loyal as the options they have'. Given the options of a spouse who is less inclined to question or debate every decision you make on the basis of 'who is more equal', seems like an obvious choice. With girls back home, they tend to be less demanding and more accomodative on a simplistic level, from what I hear from guys who got married back in Pakistan or India. On an acedemic note, all this feminism, men are useless to women etc. I wish people who make such comments would wake up and stop living a lie. Both men and women are optimized for certain roles in life and to complement each other in marriage and companionship, be it physically or spiritually. So the sooner people stop thinking they're empowered and therefore automatically entitled to an 'ideal mate', it is purely wishful thinking. My 2 cents worth, considering the constantly devaluing dollar, it cud be 1.3 cents by the time your read this. ;) Disclaimer: If anything I wrote offends anyone, don't sue me. Please.
November 26, 2007 7:08pm
I think it is a waste of time wondering why he marries women from back home, why he didn't call, why he is not giving me enough attention, why does he like her more than he likes me, why does he prefer goris, why does he prefer desis, why his socks never match...blah blah. Who really cares? Stop with the generalizing people! :P
November 26, 2007 9:11pm
From what I know of typical Muslim American Guys who come from well maintained, educated, respected families who have been in North America since their forefathers, the guys who have a class and are broad-minded: Either go for white (non-muslim)girls or westernized muslim girls. Because they need someone to match their thinking and status. They dont believe in marrying just for the sake of it and importing a wife from backhome to decorate her in house and make her do all the housework. They dont believe in marrying someone they can have control over because hey "I imported you, I am DA MAaN". NO, the elite class of guys want their match who they can show off in society yeah "This is My Girl/Wife". Notice the difference between the FOB-ROOTED, male egoistic, double-standard, selfish, lower class "I am the MAAN" type of guys and on the other hand the elite class of Muslim American, sophisticated, well-mannered, educated from respected families "This is my Girl/Wife" (I am only referring to the ones who play around intentionally knowing this girl is not going home) Only a FOB-ROOTED covert who was born and brought up in North America with double-standard mentality date here marry backhome can stoop so low because He Can as it fits him right. They know already in their heads that they will eventually marry a fresh piece from backhome whom their parents will be proud of because their loyal son will keep the FOB-ROOTED generation going. One thing these type of guys forget is that No matter even if you wrap doggys poop up with a nice fancy gift wrap it still will remain doggys poop. Right? Fortunately, I have met the other group of guys: well rooted, educated, pride of the nation. FOB-ROOTED just dont pass through my filters. Unfortunately some Muslim NAcan sisters have encountered them and I feel for them. I wasnt born in NAcan society so I dont know how can they be so nave in not knowing their tricks. If I came across such guys I would have taught them some great lessons. All I would say to my dear sisters is that be thankful to Allah that He saved your life from such species so you can appreciate the one who you truly deserve.
November 25, 2007 8:50am
I think dat suxx.... a bad person can b loved 2.
November 25, 2007 9:32pm
as some believes that eastern women are less material, less-costly, and have more respect to commitment than western women.
December 1, 2007 9:07pm
Despite my fairly unflattering analysis of why men choose to marry back home.. I think people have every right to go for what satisfies them *if* they are not hurting others or being dishonest in the process. I mean..I'm well aware that the motives for marrying a woman like me are not necessarily any purer or more admirable -- I'm seen as a cash cow, a status symbol for those who are proud of education and accomplishments, and a middle aged man can marry me without feeling like a dirty old man (because pretty much every week someone mistakes me for an undergrad student). Everyone defines "trophy wife" differently -- and eveyrone (men and women) wants a trophy spouse. It is just human nature. I don't give a man any more credit for being interested in someone like me than someone from back home. It depends on what floats the guy's boat. Marriage between any two people is a contract (literally a contract in Islam) -- you barter your assets to form the most strategically beneficial alliance. If you are smart, you consider character an asset -- not just money, looks, family name etc. Because character is what holds currency with God, is what keeps a (wo)man by your side through thick and thin, makes that person a good role model for children, allows marriage to be "half your deen" rather than a social milestone. For those who party hard or date around with *the intention* of going back to the homeland to marry... I really have a hard time believing that it is the most morally upright behavior. It is like those who sin all their lives and then think they can go for Hajj at the age of 60 and wipe away their sins. I'm not God, obviously. But I imagine God is just and fair and doesn't get taken for a ride by His own creation. I'm not in a position to say how God judges people. I just have faith that whatever His criteria is -- it is just. I came across this surah recently. It does somewhat applies: Surah 63: The Hypocrites Revealed after the Hijrah. This chapter has 11 verses. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. 1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars. 2. They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah: truly evil are their deeds. 3. That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not. 4. When thou lookest at them, their bodies please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)! 5. And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance. 6. It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors. 7. They are the ones who say, "Spend nothing on those who are with Allah's Messenger, till they disperse (and quit Madinah)." But to Allah belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the Hypocrites understand not. 8. They say, "If we return to Madinah, surely the more honorable (element) will expel therefrom the meaner." But honor belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers; but the Hypocrites know not. 9. O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, surely they are the losers. 10. And spend something (in charity) out of the substance which We have bestowed on you, before Death should come to any of you and he should say, "O my Lord! Why didst Thou not give me respite for a little while? I should then have given (largely) in charity, and I should have been one of the doers of good". 11. But to no soul will Allah grant respite when the time appointed (for it) has come; and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do.
December 1, 2007 6:08pm
I think most of the people here are misinterpreting the question and my comments. I AM ONLY TAKING ABOUT GUYS HERE WHO "INTENTIONALLY" DATE MUSLIM GIRLS KNOWING THEY WILL MARRY A GIRL FROM BACK HOME. WE ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS WHAT THE REST OF THE GUYS AND GIRLS DO.. Most of the smart people here have already answered the question. I already answered the question several times. If it wasnt clear Ill reiterate it in a simpler form. Answer: That 'specific' group of guys are fob-rooted converts. They mix in western society and date as they please but afterall their male egoistic, double-standard thinking which runs in their blood takes them backhome. There is nothing wrong with the girl. It's all in their sick mind. If that girl was his sister than he would have taken it differently, thats what you call double-standards. There are a billion diseases in human beings in this world. Consider this one of it. Next question please..
November 24, 2007 11:20pm
Dinastrange said: "I like being a b*tch. Has it's advantages. Much better than being taken for a ride by somebody who is incredibly stupid. Sure, many girls would back me down on that." Well, in that case, you shouldn't complain if guys avoid you like plague. This kind of behavior is not on the desirable list of traits on any guy's list when he's looking for a spouse. Being mean is not the only alternative if you want to avoid getting taken for a ride. It is probably a stupid reaction.
December 1, 2007 3:34pm
Agree with what Aneela4u said. Also, being or claming yourself to be broadminded is not acting like a street thug...and using street lang. or about wearing less clothing on your bodies...(to me it seems like some desi ppl misunderstood this word!); its about gaining knowledge and being tolerant. Also, ISLAM is the key to knowledge I dont understand why we are turning this topic into animal fight.lol everyone has mind of their own and we should just respect that. And in case of marriage each person tries to find someone who is good and loyal to them. And who will be a good father/mother and wife/husbandand a partner who will raise good kids with good values. So it doesnt matter where they marry, its about who they will marry.
December 1, 2007 9:46am
I don't think it a matter of which women are more equipped, educated, or suitable. I honestly feel that it has become very hard for people to trust one another, more so here because we have become so accustomed to being decieved and in return cynical and skeptical. I do believe, women here are definitely more independent because of our upbringings but independence is not necessarily the same as being overly liberal and that is where people confuse the two. It is sometimes easier to embrace the more predictable than to embrace the more challenging.
December 1, 2007 2:14pm
I couldnt read what miss canada wrote i just read the part where she is talking about muslim men dating girls here and marrying girls back home. First of all good and bad is everywhere. There are girls here who are sooo westernized its insane, unbelievable but at the same time there are also girls here, some of my bhabis, born and raised in america and canada, and they are soo amazing, not only religious, also professionals and hijabis. I also know girls in pakistan who came here just for the greencard married the guy left him after the greencard and went off with their previous boyfriends, or even worst stories, than again some of the girls who came from pakistan, were just one of the most amazing people i have ever met. we cannot sit here and point out people like that. Yes there are guys out there who are sick they just date for fun, with innocent girls who are good but go back home to get married, and yes as somone mentioned that when they go back home, those girls wont know how big of a player the guy was, when he was in the us. its not even pakistan people go get married to girls from london, just bacause they are so badnaam here. but once again there are amazing guys who marry the girls from pakistan for their parents will, and cant break their hearts. so basically, we shouldnt sit here and fight, not every guy goes around and marry girls back home, there are good guys also. i dont even know why everyone is debating here. its like saying some race is just bad or sterotyping race. or anyone. when nice girls get played like that its very sad and painfull but that doesnt mean all the guys are the same. its just one story... so you guys chilll out and the best way to change these kind of people or anyone is by bringing islam in them. As soon as our amazing religion comes in the picture, everything just works fine.
December 1, 2007 2:59am
Well this is indeed a BIG problem and it happens a lot , much to our surprise every time, that's why so many great attractive educated muslim women here in America are still single. It is such a big problem here in the OC, Calif. that in the Eid khutba..the maulana mentioned for everyone to look around themselves to see the many single nice muslim girls here with their families who are having trouble finding a muslim boy for marriage. He urged parents that are not looking here for girls for their sons to consider a muslim girl in America.
December 1, 2007 12:15am
The sister was speaking about behaviours prior to marriage. From my comprehension, she is indicating that most muslim men mess around and go back home to get married. This is beneficial since history can be curtailed. I agree women overseas many times are underestimated. In actuality, most women in my opinion are whether they are in the west or not. Anyways, I personally am sick of the double standard by most men (I did not say "all").
November 30, 2007 7:06pm
I personally believe marriage is a choice everyone is entitled to exercise their personal preferences in - whether that means marrying back home, in the west or even in planet mars! provided they stay true to it and dont mislead others in the process (as im sure everyone would agree is morally wrong. The "victims" of this, whether male or female, may admittedly be stupid to fall for it - but it still doesnt make it right) OBB - you're missing MsCanada's point. she is referring to guys who KNOW they want to marry back home, yet choose to fool around with western muslim girls in the meantime. Im sure you, like any other sane minded individual, would agree that is morally wrong, so why be so defensive and abusive unecessarily?
November 21, 2007 11:22am
.... There are just as many Muslim girls in America that have had their share of fun.... after which they've gone to live healthy, married lives, successfully washing over their own pasts. Whether its with someone from here or abroad. It's called being young. Something which BOTH sexes go through. I know your question "speaks" to a lot of seemingly disenfranchised women - yet it speaks more about their own insecurities, and lack of success in acquiring a decent mate than anything else. The women who bring up this complaint often DO have pasts of their own - As for the question where you ask "If that was their intention in the first place......" You are essentially saying that most men have their lives and dating careers pre-planned..... And the whole notion regarding a desi spouse being "unaware of one's past," as opposed to an American spouse which will somehow....intuitivly know that a guy has had girlfriends before? Yeah... since girls are abroad are such blockheads aren't they? This is like black women whining over the fact that some black men choose to date white women. That's their preference. The end. Stop being bitter and work on improving YOURSELF.
November 30, 2007 3:49pm
Asssalam ualikum, well i dont know why most of the males got offended...we should all accept that this is a bitter truth of western culture.I am a separated women my husband went backhome to marry me even though there are many girl from good family here also.The truth my dear brothers is very bitter later i got to know that he used to date around with girls before and when it came to marriage he ran backhome....my husband treated me like dirt, was not ready to spend a single dollar on me and our son. even after getting married my parents were taking care of all my expenses cuz they wanted to save my home,my husband and in laws treated me like a slave who used to clean the house, do baby sitting of their children while they go to disco and casino.My rights were nothing cuz they believe women in islam have no rights(excluding his sisters).I was not allowed to go out and was harrassed every day ....what could be the reason.....THEY WERE AFRAID IF I GO OUT I WILL LEARN ABOUT MY RIGHTS.Finally when i raised voice one day i was sent backhome with my child forever and now my husband is again hunting for a young,rich,religious and straightforward girl he wil never get married to a US born desi girl cuz he knows that she will never tolerate their bad treatment and will call 911 rightaway.This is not just my story but they are so many girls like me who are becoming victims of such sick minded people living in western countries...they have no fear of Allah. Allah hafiz
November 29, 2007 9:34pm
i'm going with who ever makes dhal better.
November 29, 2007 10:19pm
I think all women rocks and so are men. It really comes down to what rocks your world??? Why we are telling each other what is good and whats is bad for them...beats me..
November 29, 2007 6:04pm
lol obi bhola bhala atleast I didnt directly attack anyone but now i will ba$turd. Its people like you who my comments are directed to and ofcourse truth hurts n reality bites. And Im glad my comments brought forward an a$$ like you to show your true colours to the rest. Ima bich just bcoz i am bold and stronger than a si$$y like u..I m pro$titute just bcoz i dont bend for per-verts like u lol OK...sorry that I took away ur manliness. I cant stop laffing. It might have hurt a lot. LOL and dont worry about me many people agree with me..worry about yourself as you accepted what I said about guys like you. I have my place in this world you go find your spot in hell :) And I will pray to Allah have mercy on whoever gets married to U if that ever happens :P
November 29, 2007 4:28pm
Wow! Your comments to MsCanada were inappropriate and below the belt. I'm surprised you started that with as-salam and called her "sis". Why can't naseeb vibes just be DISCUSSIONS and not attacks?! *sigh*
November 29, 2007 4:38pm
Assalaamu alaikkum. this is a popular topic, one that I have heard being talked very much in my sisters' halaqah group. Subhana'Allah. If a man or woman who grew up here wants to marry someone back home, then let them be and marry from backhome...as in "import" a wife or husband from aboard to be here with them since it is hard after some good muslim men here search Muslim woman after Muslim woman as a potential wife that their traditional and religious Muslim mom and dad don't approve of. Nevertheless, yes...marrying someone back home does really guarantee more likely someone who will be a housewife since most Muslim woman (including myself) want to be a good Muslim wife with some sort of work or career besides husband and children which some Muslim men here in USA, UK, and western society's world just plain do not want. only thing is this: when finding someone for marriage, you should get to know them by talking to them and interacting with them within modest means such as some phone calls/emails and face-to-face interactions with the potential wife's mahrams or friend chaperone...remember, a man and woman cannot and shouldn't be alone before marriage since that is only going to lead to fitnah and shaitaan's influence of winning over them (and you don't want that). so get to know someone within islamic and decent modest means and get married to someone with strong Deen, good akhlaq manners and personality, good compatibility, and (a note for woman...it is worth waiting for a potential husband candidate to be somewhat financially stable since a lot of marriage issues come from being unfinancially sound and stable). May Allah swt guide us all and keep us all in the path of Deen of Al-Islam, insha'Allah. Ameen! Peace out!
November 29, 2007 3:38pm
My image of picking a spouse from back home always reminds me of someone going to pick a cow....i mean...we all look like cows, who knows whose milk is sour and whose is sweet? or even who has mad cow disease? I dont know if i am feminist or just extremely honest.....well if any of ya'll are in new jersey...ill be the cow with the sign that says i have mad cow disease!! These comments were great.....even though it got a little dangerous but i am glad everyone was so honest and open about how they felt. Its a refreshing concept for naseeb
November 27, 2007 8:00am
From what I know of typical Muslim American Guys who come from well maintained (WELFARE?), educated, respected families who have been in North America since their forefathers ... (WHAT?!!! U mean native americans??) the guys who have a class (JUST ONE?)....and are broad-minded: Either go for white (non-muslim)girls or westernized muslim girls (LIKE SHAKIRA AND J-LOW?). Because they need someone to match their thinking and status. (LIKE HUGH HEFNER or MICK JAGGER?) guys who have a class who have been in american since thier forefathers...WHAT?!!! U mean native americans?? But yes, FOB-ROOTED evil Vampires are all over town. Gotta keep those filters clean. squeaky Clean...or they can slip through the cracks and get you! ;) Sorry, just cudn't resist responding to that! :)
November 27, 2007 8:33am
From what I understand....the issue is that people growing up in this sociopolitical environment have to adapt to the values and norms here. So a large majority, spend most of thier childhood, adolescent years and even a major part of thier teens and twenties doing what the typical western kids do. Which includes serious clubbing,drinking, partying and also the no-holds-barred holidaying at popular mexican or cuban beach resorts. I've heard Desis easily outdo everyone else at partying, at these holiday hotspots. Then when it hits saturation point, one fine morning, it hits home......"it's time to settle down and raise a family". Off they go to attend the next Islamic convention or Halaqa and start networking with like-minded 'Sistahs and Bruthers' and then the game really begins. Guys and girls try and meet up under 'halal' circumstances, and then start getting to know each other better. But the underlying fundamentals are still western and the whole 'clash of cultures' thing kicks in. So then the guy is accused of being a player and the girl a feminist and the saga continues. Eventually, the reformed 'playah' dudes go back home and marry and the girls here try to figure out why they did? Point being, core values need to change in people and moreso as they grow up in socety. What you do, will catch up with you someday, for certain. You cannot clean up your act overnite and become an 'ideal spouse'. The best we can do is to talk to our younger generation and stop them from making the same mistakes. Make them aware of the pros and cons of lifestyle choices they could possibly make and how it can affect thier lives later. Disclaimer: Just my opinion, so if you disagree with anything I wrote, I agree with you completely. ;)
November 20, 2007 11:27pm
Thanks the stars that I lucked out and got me a hybrid... in my meek experience in all my quest though singledom I came to realize that I wanted was someone with my exact background whom I can share and who can relate to my experiences growing up.. Chick/guys who are brought up in the good ol US and A have, I think, a different prospective on culture religion,, err on life in general.. and yet I knew some whose life experience were only limited to the good ol homeland wouldnt relate to the struggles of a first generation immigrant paying their dues get to be were ever they are in life now .. The perfect match for me was someone exactly like me who grew up in the good ol homeland but matured and when thought the experience of coming of age as an immigrant in a then foreign land.. And viola so far so good the glass sandal fit just right... Oh on a side note isnt this debate the natural evolution of the FOB vs. ABCD debate eh? P.S. to each their own no? Why worry about the norm .. or worry about what guys/girls do or prefer in general in our communities.. Should we rather focus in just on person or the person who may or may not be in our lives now? The rest of the society be dammed no? cause in the end like and choices of one and only one person matters with whom you will (atleast hope) to spend the happily ever after with eh? Err unless some one is on a quest to establish a harem then I guess all bets are off eh?
December 5, 2007 1:44pm
Wow! I rarely ever check my account, but I came across this topic last night and all I can say is there is alot of hate amongst Muslim men and women. If you take out the controversial issues of love, sex and marriage, we are still left with an even bigger issue: In a time when our community is so vulnerable in the west, it is really appropriate for us to rip each other to shreds like this. The only other community which I can think of with this sort of issue is African-Americans, and we all know what crisis their community is in.
December 5, 2007 12:43am
What is really bothering you....... seems like you are really mad at FOBs.... all FOBs are not bad and all ABCDs are not angel...... u broke my heart I thought we had some thing ;)........... j/k
November 20, 2007 1:42pm
i think you need to learn more about islam do be very smart because you knw nothing
November 20, 2007 8:29pm
This convo might be one reason girls chose to go back home: letmeknowu_1st: Assalam-o-Alaikum naseeber234: Wa Alaikum Salam letmeknowu_1st: how r u doing today naseeber234: not bad and you? letmeknowu_1st: humdullha good naseeber234: soooooo..... letmeknowu_1st: nothing muchs yar so any plans for long weeknd naseeber234: just rest and some shopping maybe letmeknowu_1st: wow cool letmeknowu_1st: girl girl girl shoping shoping shoping naseeber234: yep...can't do without it letmeknowu_1st: i know but i love that part i mean shoping and girl letmeknowu_1st: so what do u do naseeber je naseeber234: wow..that's interesting naseeber234: besides shopping??? naseeber234: i work letmeknowu_1st: girl and shoping letmeknowu_1st: ;) naseeber234: what do you do? letmeknowu_1st: just kidding yar i love sopping too but i like to do shoping alone letmeknowu_1st: i m in health care business letmeknowu_1st: and u naseeber234: engineer letmeknowu_1st: wat kind of engg naseeber234: what kind of business? letmeknowu_1st: i m an bio medical engg thats y i ask u naseeber234: im an electrical engineer naseeber234: i think bio-med would fall under engineering more than healthcare letmeknowu_1st: i deal with medicare pt durable equipments and sleep center naseeber234: DME such as walkers/canes/oxygen etc... naseeber234: ?? letmeknowu_1st: some thing like that but we disigne equipments too according to patients requirements naseeber234: so you work at Wright/Fillipis or Binsons?? letmeknowu_1st: how do u knwo about DME is any one doing business in u r family or have u work for any doc office naseeber234: i know a little... naseeber234: my dad has a PT clinic letmeknowu_1st: DME workd even doctors they dont knwo about it thats y i ask u naseeber234: ok letmeknowu_1st: only health care business person know about DME OR HME HH naseeber234: so how long have you been here? letmeknowu_1st: almost 10 years letmeknowu_1st: and u naseeber234: since 1991 letmeknowu_1st: oh ok letmeknowu_1st: paki or indian ? naseeber234: from Pakistan naseeber234: Islamabad letmeknowu_1st: oh ok letmeknowu_1st: hay i ask for pic request can u allow me if u dont mind naseeber234: i haven't seen yours so yes i do mind letmeknowu_1st: ok ask for request then fair deal naseeber234: im not a member so can't do it letmeknowu_1st: then i have to drive to michigan lol naseeber234: four hours... letmeknowu_1st: dotn matter if is worth it naseeber234: is ur family here? letmeknowu_1st: mom dad recentaly went back to india in august they will come back again in march or april to eat my head to get marry naseeber234: you should listen to them and just do it letmeknowu_1st: need some time yar i said i will give me one more year naseeber234: your value depreciates annually so you'd better hurry naseeber234: hey...it was nice talking to you but I have to go work out naseeber234: the gym closes at ten so i want to get there before letmeknowu_1st: we r pathans we get apreciates dont worry about u and u r telling me common dude u r 25 beaing a girl 25 years u r not sopose to tell me u should have atlest 3 kids at this age naseeber234: wow...you must live in the ice age... letmeknowu_1st: ;) letmeknowu_1st: hahahah letmeknowu_1st: dont take personal i like good conversation naseeber234: you should really talk because if i was just a high school grad, this convo would have ended ten minutes ago... letmeknowu_1st: attitide naseeber234: it goes well with the shopping letmeknowu_1st: plz dont show me i got more then u plzzzzzzzzzzzz naseeber234: lol...no you don't... naseeber234: I'll always have more letmeknowu_1st: lol ok ok now go and do some excersice and take out some of u r frasturation letmeknowu_1st: ya cuz u r pakistnai girl always got lil attitude and they messup life in ending cuz of attitude naseeber234: thanks for the motivation..i'll keep it in mind naseeber234: then why talk to us..go find some white girl letmeknowu_1st: yar as i told i like talking to a bold girl like u and i know ur matured so please dont take personal ok letmeknowu_1st: white chicks r good only in bed they dont have good sence of homour like us we do naseeber234: believe me..i don't take anything personal from a guy who I've talked to
November 20, 2007 1:19pm
wat made them to chanGe theiR minD
November 20, 2007 1:37am
Well as long as your not bitter...I'm thinking you have been left for a pakiland bride, am I right? Oh and if you know the guys in Pakistan are better, then why be mad. We prefer spouses back home and you do too, so case solved.
November 20, 2007 10:10am
Glad to know we found common ground.. In general...I think when we look for common ground..it is easy to find..when we look for differences..those are easy to find as well...there's utility to doing each at times..since disagreements help you challenge your way of thinking and consider other points of view...it is not a good thing to be surrounded by "yes (wo)men"...but neither is it helpful to just create an "us" versus "them" mentality...and that does become difficult once an argument gets heated up... Aliya -- you make some points I'd repsond to... But I just arrived in Dallas ..and my nieces and nephew are distracting me... So, I think I'll be taking a hiatus from naseeb while I'm with family...
November 19, 2007 8:04pm
Alright..well not sure if this has been mentioned but this is the #1 reason fellas go back to indopaki land due to not dealing with a girls "history" yes History of her dating..thats what the real reason is. Not rights, or being outspoken, its the history part that drives em nuts.
November 20, 2007 12:12am
In my opinion, if muslim men do not fall in love with any one they usually prefer to get marry with girls choosen by them with approval of their close family.While approving the marriage with any girl the close family members usually consider that girl s approach in life, brought up and education etc should be compatable to them. They usually do not consider the girls who are brought up abroad competable to them. I do not think that history of boy or girl really matters as every human being has some past.Even the girls brought up in East are not exempted from this.So are the boys
November 19, 2007 6:57pm
Guys here are the bad apples from back home..They r ugly, fat, used, walking STD. They dont have anything to compete with the gorgeous fair tall attractive sincere guys from backhome. So the only way to get a good girl from anywhere regardless here or back home is to brand themselves with foreign citizenship status. The girls here already know their game. We want more out of them but they are hollow. Nothing for us to be hooked on for long, so they are insecure about this fact. And they dont want to eat dirt from us girls so they keep a low profile and marry back home and make all kinds of excuses about western girls here just so they can hide their ugly faces behind the bush.
November 19, 2007 11:29am
desimonster, acceptance of your proposal is pending your profile approval .......... lol Badmaash007, I'm thinking its an odd day when a monster and a badmaash are concurring my posts ..... lol solutionguy :)
November 19, 2007 11:40am
well look who's talking about Western women I really would like to see more Asian(Inonesian,Chines,and Malaysian)women on search log they are much more Intellects and understanding,free spirit than all those Pakistanis women,Hey ladies weak up smile the coffee it is women's right nothing do not forget that.western women knows what they want out of life it is very sad to read those ladies comments . Yet they do know what is going on their home land barbarian uncivilized traditions, honor killing arranged marriage, (incest marring their 1st cousins) Blah Blah's isn't ironic that you ladies criticizing the Western woman look closer to your own family where they came from ? obviously your parents know better than you they came to this country and settled any other western countries so please don't insult Western world, and please do not judge Allah(sbwt) arts we all created by him.
November 24, 2007 10:19am
Sam 77, she is such a smart lady and always on there money. How I have tried to woo her across the seven seas but no avail ... oh well ... Seriously, Sam is right on this. Why is this topic even an issue! Having said this I would like to share this perspective: I grew up in London and in so many ways was a very typical Western kid with brown skin and whose live was conflicted right down the middle. Because romance was never encouraged by my parents, inevitably that me want that I stayed away from women of my background - they were strictly OFF LIMITS and the consequences if you got caught were serious! And given that our Desi worlds are so well networked, that was a very high probability. We have all been there. But I was still a young man growing up discovering woman & the world and so they meant that it was only non Desi women that I desired and got involved with with ... So for the woman who ask why is it that Desi men have flings with non Desi woman only then to want to marry a desi woman, that is the PRIMARY reason ... Im amazed you have not worked that out!! Think about it, it makes sense! Then one day I saw a great Hindi movie which contained some of the most devastatingly beautiful women I had ever seen and it changed my opinion forever! So much so, that I asked my company for a transfer and was expatriated to live and work in Bombay for 2 years ... and I loved it! The people there were so amazingly cultured in Desi life, yet also at the cutting edge of modernity and etiquette. The women were wonderful, mannered, and feminine yet at the same time ambitious and cultured and passionate about living life the Desi way. And they quickly persuaded me that my life partner should actually be from that part of the world.... With eastern values at the core of the DNA but whom had modernized and evolved that view to be in harmony with the this world we live in. It is so pathetic and to hear language such as FOB and how they are in some way inferior to American or British born desi's. Im afraid you have missed the point. In terms of values, class and culture, these people a light-years ahead and so much more grounded than us. In fact, in many ways, I wish it was the way I had been brought up instead.
November 23, 2007 2:57pm
Did you guys hire an intern or something? It takes weeks to change the question far after it has fizzled. I may decide to spend Naseeb membership money on that bagel or tube of socks
November 23, 2007 10:51pm
Thats sad to read how some guys are.... Whether it is a guy or a girl both have choice to marry whomever they choose. If guy or girl living here wants to marry here thats a good idea because chances of understanding are greater in many ways. On other hand, if someone feels that no one is good here and bases his/her judgment on certain people they have met and had bad experience with and because of that would like to go back to Pakistan for marriage good for them too. The important thing is KNOW the person you are marrying and their family. Thats important. Also, from what I know, girls in Pakistan are not all good either. I was shocked when I went back recently to visit. So just got to be careful and remember the saying: not to judge the book by its cover. And if one is to bond in marriage it is important that you know ins and outs of the other person because what that other person is from past to present will affect your marriage. Plus I would hate to solve mysteries and find out surprises afterwards. Whatever the case may be marriage here or back home, just need to think for you and do what you feel comfortable in. Parents opinion and guidance could help also.
November 19, 2007 5:46am
Brother I understand that you are in your 30s and antsy about marriage, but no need to pander to women all the time. Your advice is blaming men in USA for being raised wrong and claiming women here are much more moral. Just because you give nice greetings and salutations doesn't mean your advice is Islamic...It's actually the opposite. I have noticed this trend of you blaming men a lot. If its an act to get a lady and settle down, like 2pac said I ain't mad at ya, but there are better ways to find a wife then turning into an apologist.
November 19, 2007 5:48am
will you marry me? If your already married, do you have a sister? :)
November 19, 2007 11:23am
.........Yes, I'm making a feminist argument -- but in the Islamic sense. ........... Islamic feminism is an oxymoron. Feminism was a response to the oppression of western women by the Church. It was Christianty that gave no voting rights, inheritance rights or divorce rights to women. Women were the property of men and husbands in England were allowed to beat wives with anything as wide as their thumb, as late as the 1800's (Rule of thumb). This is why the suffragettes rose to secure "human rights". Islam gave women human rights 1,400 years ago. Feminism is therefore, NOT in line with Islam. ...........Khadija married not for money, not for power, not for fame, not to impress others -- she married a man known for his character. And she married a man who is known to have been very kind to women, a man who helped with housework, a man who was fair to everyone and honored ALL his obligations, a man who (based on later hadith) knew how to give a woman pleasure and keep her satisfied physically in marrige, a man who was physically attractive. That is what a woman who has her own money, has independence, has her autonomy seeks. In rasullah's (pbuh) time, that was only available to women who had achieved autonomy through divorce or widowhood. But in today's world, a woman with an education, a job, without domineering/controlling parents can afford to marry a man for his character and his attractiveness and not for the material things he offers her. ................. You brought up a very good example of Khadija (r.a). She was indeed the best of wives and the most beloved of the prophet's wives. Your last paragraph has surprised me, since you claim that in teh prophet's time, men of chrarecter were only available to widows and divorcees and in today's age, only "empowered" women can demand that. This directly places the less educated and non-earning women as lesser mortals, who deserve less than good charecter. Quite anti-thetical to Islam. May I remind you that in Islam women arent financially responsible for themselves, whether educated, rich or not. Therefore, this criterion of financial independence to guage a woman's worth is not valid. You will recall that the the prophet (saw) also married Ayesha (r.a), a virgin and a youthful bride, a non-empowered one. So really, you cant make a case of empowerment. While we 're at the subject of Khadija (r.a) lets also examine that further. Quite often we only look at one side of the picture, regarding an ideal Islamic marriage. Lets examine what Kadija (r.a) brought to the table. 1) She married the prophet (saw) and bore him six children, out of whom only 4 survived. Considering that she married at 40, we can imagine they were not easy pregnancies. She gave him a family, she didnt decline on that aspect claiming age and empowerment, as feminism promotes. 2) She married a man who at the time of marriage was an orphan, something looked down upon in society. She had an upper hand in terms of wealth, yet she accepted him as a husband (bear in mind husbands owned wives in those days). This is quite different from blue passports today looking down upon green passports today :) 3) When he was delivered the first revelation (wahi) he came straight to her. Showing her how much he relied on her and he asked her to cover him (notice he didnt go cover himself). She was his pillar of strength. She took him to her cousin Buhaira, a Christian convert who affirmed his prophethood. She was the first one to accept Islam by Mohammad (saw). This was no cakewalk. She was going against the entire society and on an uphill task. Till the time of her death she suffered prsecution, exile and physical pain. She never saw the conquest of Makkah. She lived with the prophet (saw) in a vale, under extreme conditions, for 3 whole years. She never whined, complained or nagged him. She never told him "she was sick of playing his mother" (Astaghfirullah). Even Ayesha (r.a) was jealous of Khadija (r.a) for the love the prophet (r.a) felt for Khadija's undying devotion for him. Again this is so far removed from wives today some of whom wont go live in another state/country in perfectly safe and normal circumstances. Or wives who wont emotionally support their husbands when circumstances like losing a job or going through emoional crisis bring the men down. 4) Khadija (r.a) underwent starvation most of her married life. She gave away her money and her trading activities arent documented after their marriage. During the time after prophethood, they lived a life of poverty where starvation was frequent. She didnt employ her "empowerment" to support the lifestyle she was used to. How many women today would even morally support their "moderate muslim" husbands growing beards and going for da'awah and giving up their MD jobs to work for the masjid instead? They'd look for the monetary loss first and foremost. 5) Khadija (r.a) worked from home and did not intreact with men. Men traded on her behalf and they were arranged through her family members. Her proposal to the prophet (saw) was also sent through an emissary, her male cousin or uncle (I forget the relationship but it was not Nafeesa). The prophet's other wives who worked, also did not interact with men. They used their earning for charity. It was a very different concept of "working women". When the prophet emigrated to Medina they went with him and also joined him in some of his expeditions and trips. Their work schedule was flexible to accomadate their husband's activities. 6) The prophet went to spread the message of Allah and interaced with men and women. Khadija who was an older wife of his youth, never got jealous or insecure. She showed tremendous courage, compassion and resilience towards the cause of Allah. This is why she was chosen for this honor and in one instance Gabriel delivered Allah's salam to her through the prophet (saw). Subhan'Allah, what a lady she was. He never took another wife or slave girl while she lived. it may not strike many people, but the main reason for this was his absolute emotional bonding with her. She was his strength and the year of her death was called "year of grief". She trusted him, honored him and stayed by him, against all odds. The period between the first and second wahi was 18 long months and during this time the prophet (saw) himself started to doubt his revelation, but it was only Khadija who assured him he was a true prophet. There was no competition or self-reliance in their marriage or any of the prophet's mariages. There was mutual dependence, sacrifice and love above all. These are the marriages that are beacon for all Muslims to follow. 7) The prophet (saw) darned his own clothes but that should not be taken to extremes to say that he shared in ALL the housework. There is no hadith stating that he cooked. Infact hadith tells us that he told Ayesha to cook, harisa (haleem like food). He also told Ayesha (r.a) not to prepare his bed with feathers, meaning she did it for him (saw). At one time, Ayesha put up pillows with animals embroidered on them and he refused to enter her apartment, till she removed them. She later said that she did it for his pleasure. Didnt the mother of all believers try and beautify the house for her husband? 8) The prophet (saw) and Khadija's (r.a) youngest daughter had her Nikaah at 16 and marriage at 18. The prophet (saw) didnt wait for her to be "empowered". Islam encourages early marriage, which obviously doesnt jive with PhD and jobs before marriage, both for men and women. 7) When Fatima (r.a) complained to the prophet (saw) for overwork, he told her the tasbeeh-e-fatima, instead of giving her a slave boy that she had requested. Additionally early in their marriage, when Ali (r.a) and Fatima (r.a) quarrelled abt housework. The prophet (saw) told Fatima that work inside the home was her job and that outside the house, Ali (r.a)'s job. This is a far cry from the equality slogans today that promote househusbands. .........you get the message, how we should also aim to emulate the wives and daughters of the nabi (saw), and not just expect it from men to fulfill their part. They are answerable to Allah if they fail, but if men fail to live upto their part, we cant use that as an excuse not to live upto ours. May Allah enable us to follow the example set by the mother of the beleivers, Ameen. Peace be upon you!
November 19, 2007 4:18am
*blush* though really...you crack me up too... love the comment on having babies...so true! Though..you know... science has yet to create a good alternative to the actual human womb If you wiped out the male species..I mean..gender..you could perpetuate humankind with just women and a sperm bank... If you wiped out the female species...then the human race would go extinct... Hehe..had to get my anti-male comment in for this 24 hour period..lest I go into withdrawal and start having seizures as a result...
November 19, 2007 3:46am
Jery Jerry Jerry Jerry...Look, the fact that Nomecapone can bitch like a rotweiler only means one thing...us men can even beat you on your supposed turf. Beat that Sista! We rule the world, we always have and that's because we've always been good at EVERYTHING...well accept having babies.... ... ...On second thought, we're probably better than you at that as well. I mean, it takes you slow coaches 9 months to fulfill your part of the bargain whereas we can do our side of the job in 30 seconds. Nag on that one, honey! Umer M.
November 19, 2007 3:48am
ummm, How BIG IS YOUR BRUSH? I quote you Umer M.
November 19, 2007 4:11am
someone took my quote off but it was the one where Umber said that most of the American Muslim guys were not good and decent. Umer M.
November 19, 2007 4:12am
Ramzanski: You crack me up And you are selling yourself short...just $20 for such an entertaining post? I laughed out loud! But..well..who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth...$20 it is If I make it out to Ramzanski ...will the bank accept it? By the way, is this some ploy to get me to send a check so you can then get access to my bank info and fleece me for millions? (if so...I'm sorry to inform you that pediatricians don't make 6 figure salaries) *raises one eyebrow suspiciosly and gives a "don't you even try to mess with me" look at Ramzanski* For the record..I think some of my posts are more negative than I usually like to post....I can definitely see why I could be categorized as a resident man-hater coming out of my cave... I also am not so anti mother-in-law..if it weren't for the post - by a man - that men want to marry their mothers..I would not have gotten so focused on it. I took it and ran with it. But I've seen some examples of really sweet mothers-in-law who genuinely welcome a daughter-in-law into the family and do not play any petty politics. I think I'm just on the tail end of some very aggravating encounters (putting it mildly)..and the desi male is not my favorite creature right now..(I'm a little more fond of scorpions..they seem so friendly and caring and kind :P). if my only interactions were with said males..I most definitely would have started to swing the other way... But..thankfully...I have plenty of married friends who have good marriages -- to desi men no less -- marriages of every sort (uber traditional to "ultra modern"). In the end it isn't really about who cooks or who takes out the trash...it is about mutual respect, trust, and compatible expecations from marriage. Which is why.... though my take on why the traditional marriage works sounds cynical...I sincerely mean it does work for some.... because there is a basis for respect for each other..and clearly defined expectations of the respective roles. I don't happen to have an outlook or a personality suited to that sort of dynamic... I know that..and I have no objection to men going back to marry... it does not limit my pool of potentials...becuase they were never potentials for me and vice versa.... I certainly don't think that some FOBbette is walking around married to "my" husband.. she's married to the man God intended her to marry... group hug anyone? i mean..if it is a virtual group hug...isn't that halal?
November 19, 2007 1:54am
It is a sad time when our muslim community talks in such a hurtful manner to one another, why should we hope that anyone outside our community will think any better of us. We should all strive to live our lives in the best manner possible so that when we die we do not have to fear due to our past deeds. We always want the best potential partner for life, maybe we should strive to be the best so that we can hope to meet someone likewise. May Allah swt give us all hidayath and help our ummah
November 12, 2007 9:59am
People will rip me for saying this, but the best thing would be for muslim men and muslim women not to date. Rather, there are other good ways to get to know a potential spouse in leiu of dating. But, I realize that this will probably never happen because dating is very entrenched in western culture. Hence, many muslims here are heavily influenced by it especially if you are not strong in your deen. As for your question, it is wrong from a moral standpoint for a muslim man to do that. But, I am sure you have muslim women doing the same thing and its equally wrong. Sadly, i'll just say its a sign of the times and this "modern" world we live in today. May Allah (swt) help us all to become better muslims.
November 18, 2007 8:47pm
'sup aliya06, AoA! She said: "Men arent looking for a half-man for their needs. They are looking for a W.O.M.A.N. Someone who they can have a loving and peaceful family with. Somone who will sacrifice for them. Someone who'd make their house a home. If they're taking care of plumbing, car servicing and driving everywhere when they go out, then she should reciprocate by cooking them chicken biryani and put effort in beautifying the home. Not someone who'd create a hell hole. This is what ALL men want. (guys you can help out by concurring :P )" ---- Ok, concurring here. Well put. I met ABCD women who cant cook to save their lives, primarily, because they believe that it is a symbol of suppression.
November 18, 2007 9:43pm
Is cooking the gold standard for how good a wife a person is? What if she hates cooking and is really bad at it. why don't men just cater excellent home cooked meals and not marry, if that is what makes a good wife..who needs a woman who can't cook..banish em.talakkk
November 19, 2007 12:17am
Yes, I'm making a feminist argument -- but in the Islamic sense. Khadija married not for money, not for power, not for fame, not to impress others -- she married a man known for his character. And she married a man who is known to have been very kind to women, a man who helped with housework, a man who was fair to everyone and honored ALL his obligations, a man who (based on later hadith) knew how to give a woman pleasure and keep her satisfied physically in marrige, a man who was physically attractive. That is what a woman who has her own money, has independence, has her autonomy seeks. In rasullah's (pbuh) time, that was only available to women who had achieved autonomy through divorce or widowhood. But in today's world, a woman with an education, a job, without domineering/controlling parents can afford to marry a man for his character and his attractiveness and not for the material things he offers her.
November 19, 2007 12:20am
I don't believe that the people posting to this thread are as bitter and paranoid as they sound - well, a few of them probably are. This kind of subject brings out insecurities in us all, so people come out swinging and ask questions later. It seems like almost everyone here agrees on the basic points (and I'm unemployed, so I've had the time to read every post), but are stuck arguing on the fringe. We get caught in no-man's land arguing some peripheral point and then get so defensive that we don't bother coming back to the centre, where most of our thoughts and passions lie. That being said, let me introduce my own lunatic-fringe perspective, since this thread has become more about who-has-it-worse victimology than its original purpose: Speaking as an ABCD male, we've got it pretty good. Sure, there are some advantages women have over us, but overall, we have a pretty sweet deal, especially compared to white dudes.* Consider the fact that most desi girls find white guys more physically attractive than desi guys,** but very few desi girls actually consider marrying white guys. They choose us, by and large. So we desis, a race of pretty women and mostly so-so to ugly-looking guys, usually get matched together. All we desi guys have to do is uphold our part of the bargain, which is to get educated, get a reasonable job, and be dependable fathers. Sounds a tall order, but if your wife is cute, honest, and a pretty good cook, it's a fair tradeoff. Maybe I'm spoiled, having been married only a year and being treated to good homecooked desi and Thai meals. Eating well and eating often is one of the keys to happiness. Now consider for a moment the plight of white guys. So many of the women in their available pool are so far from being "pure as snow virgins", which ABCD males all supposedly crave, that white guys have given up on wanting a girl with any resemblance of morals. In the 1920s white guys wanted to marry a girl who had never been kissed; a generation later they wanted at least virginity; by the 1970s they were happy with someone who'd only slept with three or four men; and today, they just want a girl who's never had a threesome involving at least one farm animal. A friend of mine is engaged to a girl who is 23 years old and has slept with - true story - 15 men (not at once). She's a nice person and will probably make a great wife, but she told him without any shame that she's slept with 15 men in her short life, and was then FURIOUS to learn that he, at age 32, has had 20 sexual partners. She considers him a "male slut". Now, I'm judging neither him nor her, especially as they're from a different culture than my own, but come on, ABCD guys, would you really be able to stomach marrying someone who's been with 15 men? Be honest. Sure, not every Muslim woman is as pure as the driven snow, but they're not exactly going to bed with a different man every night, whereas some white chicks, by their own admission, are OK with "going through a slutty phase", or "doing some free falling", as one college classmate called it. Sexual history isn't necessarily important - the Qur'an tells us to ignore it, in fact, once you agree to enter the bond of marriage with someone - but it is something that some men fret about. White guys have just given up fretting about it, however, because they know that if they knew the truth, it would drive them crazy. Thank God we Muslim guys are not in that boat. Now I'm just rambling, so one final parting shot: Umber's posts have been the most well-reasoned and dead-on of the bunch. She covered a wide variety of people's motivations, didn't overgeneralise, and basically had respect for other people's views, even when she disagreed. (Umber, that check for twenty bucks better be in the mail.***) *Don't take offence, please: when I say "white dudes" I just mean non-Muslim American guys whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower. **This is purely anecdotal, of course. And the plural of anecdote is "data". ***Full disclosure: I have never met Umber and have no idea who she is.
November 18, 2007 8:38pm
Choosa said: "The problem is worsened when the vast majority of girls here are good, they do have a good balance between 'East' and 'West', as their parents gave them the best of both value sets. Sadly in protecting their daughters they forgot to protect their sons allowing the vast majority of them to do as they please." On what evidence, can you make the statement that American Muslim women are in general more pious than American Muslim men? What are you basing this on? Islam doesn't say that men are more corrupt than women. However, western feminism does. Just because, you start your post with "peace be upon you", it doesn't mean that everything you say is in-line with Islam. Please stop being a sexist. Muslim men are not more corrupt than muslim women. To say otherwise, which is what you have stated, is undeniably unislamic and offensive to Muslim American men.
November 18, 2007 8:01pm
Aliya.. wonderful piece to write.. READ AND LEARN U GIRLS..
November 18, 2007 8:23pm
You could take a khota back home and find it an attractive wife or husband. A very large percentage of you who have married abroad wouldn't be with the partner you have now if you were a pakistani resident. Its ur passports and what it represents that they're married to. Nothing else. Everything is else is just words to soothe over sensitive egos.
November 18, 2007 8:37pm
Aliya06 I don't think women don't need men or vice versa.The question is *what* we need from each other. Hadith encourages men *not* to marry a woman for her beauty, wealth, family...but for her piety/character. There are hadith that also encourage women to marry men of good character. I don't need a man who is rich, powerful, lives in a place I want to move to, etc. I have enough of those things on my own. I need to respect a man for who he is -- for living up to his responsibilities, for honoring ALL his relationships, for being fair, honest, caring, trustworthy. But I also need a man who will not feel threatened by me, who won't feel insecure, who won't feel emasculated. A man who is confident in his character knows he has the most valuable thing he can offer a woman -- more valuable than societal status, than wealth, etc. In times of war, social upheaval, stock market crashes, recessions -- those things can disappear. Character remains constant. What I'm saying is that the empowerment of women has made women willing to forgo men who offer "security" in a material sense and insist that men have good character. And among Muslim American guys, there are good guys, certainly...but they seem few and far between.
November 22, 2007 6:33pm
I"ve seen guys and girls alike go 'back home' to get married. However, how come if a girl does it, its no big deal but if a guy does, its the talk of the town, especially amongst all the girls?! I personally dont care if a guy goes back home to marry a girl and why he does it. Some have pure intentions, others dont. I think those girls who are bitter and can't find a guy care about the hypocrisy of guys the most. (the same goes for the guys who are bitter and talk about all western desi girls as being useless). SO many guys and girls are just so bitter. WHen you're bitter, you end up running into even more bad experiences and you end up just DROWNING in your bitterness and will NEVER find a good partner. Smile, be happy, LOVE life and show it on your face and you WILL find interesting people and not have to dwell on those few guys who are full of hypocrisy.
November 23, 2007 2:21am
Most progressive desi girls are easy and burnt by their prince charming over and over again. Things have happened to them they cant even talk to anyone about. Now walks in desi Romeo who has to prove himself but also wash away the hurt caused by all the previous prince charming who dealt with an average specimen who doesnt measure up to the elite standards of western or eastern girls. Desi Romeo gets stuck with a paranoid, over demanding, has nothing to offer and conflicted desi girl. After a few months of fun desi Romeo morphs into the new prince charming and buys an economy ticket on pia and lands in Karachi or Lahore and declares Allah nahie mujhey bucha liya. Desi girl that is still single comes on naseeb and vents. Hence the cycle continues.
November 23, 2007 8:10am
Sure, this may happen for any number of reasons (family, security, religion, money...), but let's face it, it is not a problem. I've only known a handfull of muslim guys who married from back home. I know countless others who married from here. Why not focus on the muslim guys who choose to marry girls from here? These days of course, marrying a girl from back home is no gurantee of purity or anything. They're up to everything western girls are up to. But I think for many guys with more family back home, it might be easier to have family connections that way. But I always say, focus on what you can do. You can complain till the cows come home about the opposite sex, but at the end, people are still getting together. Try seeing what the successfully married women are doing.
November 23, 2007 8:28am
True, its about time, people stopped bitching and start living thier lives as best they can. Also why limit yourselves to desis, when you can find good men/women from other ethnicities who are motiviated enough to become good Muslims to marry and spend thier lives with the right person. The possibilities are infinite, if you really want something. So goodluck and godspeed! ;)
November 18, 2007 2:40pm
I am sorry, but I would consider your post simplistic and pretty offensive for some women who like to consider themselves more than a piece of meat, cook and cleaner of the house. By the rationale oo men need "attractive girls" and women need protectors makes men into apes and women into helpless creatures, who can be replaced once they arent the same "attractive girls" anymore. Its easy to diss feminism when you get rights like voting, and being able to have jobs..all the things women who started the "feminist" movement had to fight for..so please don't undermine their sacrifices. And where in "nature"are we living where women cant be on their own? So basically..a guy can seek a pretty,home centered woman, have her produce some kids,cook and clean and when a more attractive model comes..dump her? I can go on and on..but the harsh reality is..women need to be self sufficient. Again..the question is not "feminism" and non feminism..its a question of establishing yourself as a person in this world, not an extension of a man. Anyways.i have nothing more to say, i am done
November 18, 2007 3:32pm
When a Mrs feeds her man with good food and makes him feels like the King of his castle, he is able to raise his mighty sword for long periods of time and thrust it into her fertile ground good and proper. And the long battle is enjoyable for both players. Every one comes out a winner and they both wake up with a smile in the morning. Umer M.
November 18, 2007 3:36pm
It would be a sad world where Muslim women would come to see the role of men as sperm banks and dildos and Muslim men would give a Muslim woman the same value as a clawed hand and some Vaseline. Laanut on our education and high career jobs and east-meets-west crapola if this is what we're going to end up with. Nomecapone, matey, let me be the first to say you have King Kong balls! Umer M.
November 18, 2007 6:29pm
they wont be change their mind right if; you send them your picture w/o makeup one w/o lens
November 18, 2007 8:00pm
Not again.. !!!!! Like seriously.. here I was enjoying my lovely boring weekend of sleep, eat and then again sleep.I had to read this god damn question. So now I have to write an answer.. this answer has 2 parts.. a dickhead part and a lesser dickhead part.. u take a pick. Dickhead answer: Boys go back and marry girls from Pakistan.. cz they want to marry GIRL. not some jackass, screwed up, feminist, used and abused thing which we label as desi woman in USA.. and believe me when I say that girls in usa has all the wrong ideas about what a desi man wud want in them.. you want to play equal .. u shud do that at work not at home.. whoever told u are the hottest thing in the world.. just said so that he can get lucky.. SIT DOWN and watch the girls pictures going through on Naseeb recently online.. and now on chat.. here is what happened when I am looking at them.. Fat.. Fugly.. Fat.. HOT.. meh.. weirdo.. YA ALLAH MY EYES.. psycho.. and if some guy dare say hi to some one .. Usually the person will get a quick bye.. with this attitude and profile and an about me either out of Rumi book or east meet west sermon that is way too pathetic.. u are going to be sitting here asking the same question 10 years from now on well whom am I kidding.. you and all the other girls who have crapola as a brain and an attitude as high as mount Everest but morals and elegance as scarce as pork in Saudi Arabia. If girls back in Pakistan have a PHD in kniving attitude and being wicked (in a bad sense) girls here have a PHD in feminism.. stupidity and a wrong approach of what they shud look in a boy for .. So my dear brothers in islam and for that matter not in islam as well !! go forth and buy urself a Nice car with massaging seats.. a nice plasma screen .. a nice house over looking a nice beach.. wrok hard on ur job come back and enjoy ur single life.. and ooh just toss ur self off when in time of needs (UK Slang used to check how apt Americans are at international cultures).. its far far better then listening to the nag and byatching of these girls.. trust me .. Lesser dickhead answer: Sigh !!! woman!!! If u have to ask this question here.. that tells me right away that you are living ur life in a place where the desi reality hasnt dawned yet.. no matter whatever we say or do .. the basic nature of a man is to dominate and expect a certain way from our life partner.. in part due to the genetic code from thousand of years ago and part from the fact that we have seen in the family.. mum and dad.. uncle and aunties.. and in case u havent noticed.. usually men have a say in things lets be honest.. a fiery girl that can see u eyes in eyes is exhilarating as long as u are dating her.. it becomes boring and many a time a major de-railing factor in the marriage.. unless ofcourse the man is the ultimate sissy or too blind in love of girl.. the last thing a man and a woman wud want to do after a long day of work is to come back home and start for another debate/mind game, another Important meeting where you have to win.. we men usually dont want that.. from my personal life.. I had the honor to spend the best years of my life with some one who WAS fiery.. she was way better in any thing and every thing she wud do then me (yes a boy admitting to a girls supremacy).. yet she wud not try to win every time.. she wud let me off the hook 80% of the time and that gradually grew so much on me that I wudnt even say a thing if she wanted it one way or other.. cz she showed that her love for me gets better of her talent and fiery nature.. hence my reason to see and revere her even though she is not with me.. BUT if she wud have made every thing a competition of supremacy or even a battle of equals .. I wud have totally lost my interest in her.. when in relationship I dont want a competitor.. I want a partner.. when in relationship I dont want battles/arguments.. .i want soothing, relaxing environment.. and THIS is something that is not sunk into woman here in usa.. girls here are told that attitude is the only thing that they shud care about.. cz they are they shyit.. they are the hottest.. sorry to break it to you .. so is 2 billion other girls... if you want to show us men that you are better then us.. well then good luck to you .. cz I know that a girl in Pakistan if nothing WILL at least dont push me over as nothing but something of a social milestone.. and will also pretend to like me and agree to me even if she knows that I am the biggest dumba** in the world.. and THAT is the reason that we men go back . cz even if it is hallucination.. that is way better then being in the hell of a constant competition of being the money maker and being the best in relationship. The other thing that I personally wudnt want in my wife is a lesser understanding of the paki culture.. I have seen almost every girl shaking her goodies on RnB music.. but none knows who Akhtari begum or Hamid Bella is.. hell most of the girls I have met dont even know what to say in response of Aadaab which is a basic greeting in urdu.. and yet they have the audacity to tell me that they know culture.. culture is not wearing shalwar kameez and bling on parties and eid and say ooh I know it.. culture is a lot more then clothing.. culture is what keep a BROWN MAN like me keep my identity, identity of how to dress up for a certain occasion, how to respect the elders and with what words.. how to speak in a certain environment.. and honestly .. girls here fail this test overwhelmingly ..Before you start hating me.. I was raised in Australia and I know every poet by heart.. I know the history of pakistan as far back as 1000BC.. and I wasnt taught that.. I had to learn it my self. So before u tell me that ooh u had help.. no I hadnt.. I worked on it.. and that is what USA based people dont do it.. To be fair to American girls .. girls in Pakistan have their own bad habits.. infact many a times worse then what u see here in usa.. but here comes the law of average.. if u have 1 girl to choose from.. u have 10 girls in Pakistan to choose from and law of average tells me that i am more inclined to find a better girl in pakistan even if the sub-standard girls are way above the average.. Personally, in 2 years of USA.. I have seen a great number of girls being uncomfortably difficult to have a relationship with. Their requirement list wud have so many ridiculous things that some time I wonder if it is better to just be celibate or marry outside the paki society all together
November 18, 2007 3:02am
You also said : .......But women here already have lives of their own. There is very little a guy can really "do" for them. Guys don't like to feel useless. They want to feel "needed" by the women in their lives. They need validation. And to know that a woman does not really "need" you, to know that a woman can do just fine without you...threatens the egos of certain men......................... You made a classic argument of feminism here. I hope you realise that feminism doesnt jive with men and THATS EXACTLY WHY men would prefer a non-feminist woman from Pakistan or Timbuktu. I dont agree that women in the west dont need men or vice verca. We wouldnt marry if we didnt NEED a spouse. However, a man's needs are different from a woman's needs. The obvious physical need drives a man towards beauty, making him seek attractive girls. Other than that men dont need physical protection or provision from women. They need a family and companionship. If it werent for these two needs, nature has equipped men to be on their own. Nature has however, not blessed women with compatible perks. Women have the obvious need for "security", this security comes from marriage. Feminism conditions us to 'empower" ourslves with PhD's, jobs and complete independence. In essence we are claiming all things which men have. Pursuing teh road to manhood trying to elminate the need for "security". This precisely where the problem stems from. Security that women need isnt just about $. Security is about knowing you'd have somone to roll a fist out at a sleazeball who's stalking you, somoene who'd help with the heavy furniture in the house, somone who'd maybe know electronic gadgets better than you, someone who'd be there in your times of fear and worry, somoene who'd be there when your bliological clock has ticked away and somoene who'll buy you flowers and tell you that youre beautiful even when youre old and grey. THATS the need for security and no feminist "empowerment" can sidestep that visceral need. Men arent looking for a half-man for their needs. They are looking for a W.O.M.A.N. Someone who they can have a loving and peaceful family with. Somone who will sacrifice for them. Someone who'd make their house a home. If they're taking care of plumbing, car servicing and driving everywhere when they go out, then she should reciprocate by cooking them chicken biryani and put effort in beautifying the home. Not someone who'd create a hell hole. This is what ALL men want. (guys you can help out by concurring :P ) This is the way men are wired. Not just Muslim men or desi men, but ALL men. We may beat the subject to death "how men should change themslves" but it wont do any good. Allah himslef says in the verse of the Quran. 4:34 "Men are the maintainers and protecters of women" Obviously maintenance and protection requires them to be THE PROVIDERS. This is a state of natural equilibrium, if its disturbed, then bad things happen as we can see. Now before I am misunderstood or misquoted, let me clarify. Islam encourages women's education and productivity. It however, discourages "competition" with men. If you want to be highly educated or if you want to earn your own money, by all means go ahead and do it, but DONT be the one "carrying a chip on her shoulder". This is where feminism diverges from Islam. Feminism teaches women to "carry a chip on their shoulder", whereas Islam wishes you to respect your male relations (halal ofcourse). This post is meant in very well intentioned spirit. It is not meant to offend anyone. My advice to the sisters would be to please try and understand realities, instead of trying to fight them. Peace!!!
November 18, 2007 2:09am
I generally like your posts but quite frankly your views in this case are a bit distorted. You said : .........An American man who is fat, balding, old..or whatever other undesirable "biodata" issues he may have...he offers the girl from back home something of value -- a way to get to America. The girl in turn brings beauty. She may or may not be educated, well-bred, wealthy, etc.... But she first and foremost will be beautiful -- by desi standards.............. This is quite untrue. Not all Pakistani parents or girls are judt ding to get the treasured "blue passport". Many families do NOT wish to marry off their daughters in a faraway country because: a) the parents would barely see their daughters may be 10-12 times in teh next 20 years of the parents lifetime. b) the girl hereself would have to leave all her friends family and familiar things behind. She would no longer be a part of her extended family's happenings such as marriages, births, deaths etc etc. There would be instaces where she would miss her own siblings wedding etc due to paperwork or other issues. It happened to my sister and trust me this is HUGE. c) If the guy and his family are unsuitable in any way her parents wont be able to help her. Or if she gets health issues etc, she wont have family support. My aunt who's in States got seriously ill, but my grandparents were too old to fly over and visit. Even though her husband is very good to her, but still he had his job and she needed someone to be with her. In other cases, girls are mistreated and parents cant do much because of being so far away. d) Girls themselves are quite well aware that in America there are no servants. We here are used to help cleaning our bathrooms, ironing our clothes, cooking food and cganing our flat tires. These luxuries are hard to give up. Sure people love to travel to NYC as frequently as possible but as long as its a good vacation. Living is a different ballgame. e) Not every desi husband in USA lives in Manhattan or Dupont Circle. Now that everyone has family in US, we know they could be living in small towns where there is little to do. In addition life is so hectic busy that husbands have no time for the family. This could be very routine for you, but very alien for those who are used to a lot of family socialisation and a relaxed lifestyle. The fw exceptions to this are those families that are already established in US (other children being there) or parents or doctor girls who wish to send their daughters to America after marriage and not as singletons surviving on theor own.
November 18, 2007 12:55am
These two statements do not contradict: "That is exactly why these marriages work for guys who want exactly that in a woman. They want to be in control and this situation gives them control." "Women marry to obtain power through their husbands. Men marry women for their beauty and perhaps family alliances." Men marry women who they feel will not/cannot leave them/cheat on them. So a girl from back (at least initially) is dependent on him -- she's in a new country wihtout family, friends, permanent visa status. Talk about a position of insecurity. Talk about a man knowing he is in control. And traditionally women have obtained power through men. A woman's identity is as a "doctor's WIFE", or a rich man's WIFE, or a powerful man's WIFE....by herself she is nothing...it is only as a wife she has power in traditional society...so that way... she is never empowered in her own right...but is dependent on a man to have access to respect, power, etc. So yes she gets power "through" a man..while not really having power at all. It is not a contradiction. It is a subtlety, a nuance. And then later on...in desi society...the woman gets power through her son...by having a son..she gains power...but only if she can maintain control over her son...else she is "just" a woman. Why have most societies seen the birth of a daughter as a shameful event? Because a daughter, a female, is a source of weakness and shame in most societies. She is a burden, a liability -- traditionally she had to be provided for (as opposed to earning for the family), she could bring dishonor upon the family by getting raped or kinapped or marrying against family wishes, she had to be married off (in desi society, costing her family an exorbitant dowry), etc. Now that women are living independently, are earning money, are pursuing educations, etc -- the power balance is disrupted. Men raised in traditional households who were taught to expect a certain power dynamic resent having realizing that women don't "need" them (to take care of them financially). The relationship then has to be based on mutual respect, compromise (on both sides), shared goals -- and not based on a barter of youth/beauty for social validation/position. Yes, of course people -- men and women -- who have been abused in relationships can turn abusers. I have seen both men and women go down that route. But bullies often pick the weakest party. Which is why women who have obtained power through men -- as a wife and and as a mother-in-law...often abuse other WOMEN....women who have suffered in a chauvanistic system learn to work the system to their advantage -- so they learn to cater to men's egos and to take out their frustrations on other women. I don't see the women on here "abusing" men. We are just calling it as we see it -- and not taking shots at any individual. When voicing one's opinion becomes "abuse" -- the I think we've got some oversensitive, fragile egos. I think the personal name calling is coming from one specific source -- and that is not from the women...at least from the posts I've read. Some people are very threatened by anyone who does not agree with them. This is vibes..everyone posts their opinion. That is how this works. There is going to be a broad range of opinions. People are not going to agree. That is the just the nature of it. And the reality is that there is no single answer. Everyone's answers are obviously based on their own viewpoint and experiences. You can argue whether those viewpoints are skewed or if the experiences are representative. But for that person, that is his/her reality. Of course this became so contentious. Because the question was specifically about the player types who date around here then go back to marry. It was framed to hightlight a negative aspect of marrying "back home". It was bound to be divisive.
November 18, 2007 12:11am
Asimran said: "Why can't girls do the same?? Marry someone back home...then maybe we won't have this crisis... Let me tell you why majority of the girls would not want to marry someone back home is because "those" poor men back home are not good enough for girls here unless they are doctors :} Well it's understandable everyone wants to be happy ... but we shouldn't get too greedy in what we all want. That applies to both men and women. and Yes, I'd say marry girls should also marry MEN from backhome too and then maybe we don't have too many girls or ppl staying single :)" ----------- Good one dude! What is this attitude about ppl from back home as inferior in some way or form? Are the ABCD women too good for men from back home to marry them unless they are doctors? Why don't ABCD girls go back home and use their "american/british passport" status to their advantage as well (just like muslim men)? We all have a right to maximize value when it comes to choosing life partners. Right? The answer lies in the unfortunate racist views a lot of ABCDs harbor. They think that guys/girls from back home are inferior. Hence, when these ABCD women see muslim men choosing those women over ABCD women, they get double mad. How could he chose an inferior woman over me? LOL Well, maybe it is time for these ABCD women to realize that , perhaps, their american/british passport did not make them superior in the first place. They need to get off their high horse and stop believing that their british/american upbringing makes them a superior race.
November 17, 2007 11:50pm
Oh please, Choosa! There you go again with your "men are always the oppressors and women are always the oppressed" diatribe to look good in front of women here. Did it get you some dates yet? If not, go take some more women's studies courses at your local community college. You might just get lucky. It has nothing to do with "rights", everything to do with getting the best value out of a deal. The reason is quite simple really. The ABCD women want a guy who is perfect in every respect. He must be making loads of money, should look like a model, be a man about town yet be faithful to her. That is a mountain of non-islamic expectations and few guys can meet it. Even the average non-muslim American woman has lesser expectations, as she has been kicked around/strung along enough to know that getting married to a nice guy is hard enough without these conditions. However, on the other hand, most girls from desi land put a lot more weight on earning potential and little on the other factors. So, if I'm an average looking desi guy with decent earning potential, then, like an average guy, I'd put the most importance on physical beauty. If I try to get married to an ABCD girl, because of her long list of requirements, I may be able to have a shot with a girl who is 6 in terms of looks. However, among girls from desi land, because of their lesser emphasis on my average looks, I may be able to get an 8. So, which one I should chose? Naturally, to maximize value, as defined by me, I'd go with the more beautiful girl that I can get. Note, in this above explanation, both genders are not using Islamic criteria to find marriage partners. If either does, they'll be better off. In Islam, we are guided to look for someone who is pious. As far as the OP, Nile Menon, is concerned - Bibi, if you had followed the Islamic criteria for picking a spouse in the first place, you would have recognized that muslim player guys are not marriage material anyway, so you shouldn't have dated them and got played by them, in the first place, and if you did in the past, don't marry them. Discard your superficial criteria about money, looks, social prestige, etc. and start looking for a guy who is a nice muslim, you'll be better off.
November 17, 2007 1:19pm
Umber, I always felt that it's harder for a woman to marry back home bc she would have to be the one to guide her husband through the whole learning process of america. And I just feel like a lot of guys wouldn't like that. I also feel like I wouldnt like to be the one supporting a guy from the homeland while he is learning. It would be scary for me. It's easier for a woman to come here and have the help of her husband to guide her, teach her to drive, teach her the system of America. A lot of guys actually say they don't want to marry back home bc of that 'learning curve.' They want someone here who already knows this country. There are definitely those guys who do it for control, who want to control their wives. But I think it has more to do with the woman seemingly being more compromising and willing to make sacrifices which is why they go back there. You mentioned the guy's feel useless here bc women don't really 'need' them. We have a choice in that, we can CHOOSE to make them feel that way or we can CHOOSE to make them feel needed. Don't we all want to feel needed, don't we all want to feel loved? This is why we get married, this is a basic human need. I NEED my husband bc he is there when I am feeling down, he is there to comfort me, he is there to go out to eat with and someone to come home to. He NEEDS me for the same reason. Today even though women and men are both making a lot of money, it doesn't mean that women don't need the men. What about if we fall sick, we still have a man to provide for us. And vice versa. If my husband falls sick, I'm there financially and even if not financially, emotionally and physically. The latter two are the most important. What's life w/o the emotinoal and physical part in a family? No one in life wants to feel unneeded and useless.
November 17, 2007 1:05pm
Yea I was wondering why nome you are the only one posting. I wish we could have more guys opinions to achieve a greater understanding. the thing is when trying to analyze mothers, we can't really relate. most of us here aren't mothers let alone mother in laws. so we don't know how we'd act either. will we be jealous, will we be insecure? most women sincerely love their children (not all bc i have met some who dont want the best for their children, but most do). so we should take a look at the sincerity of a person. if a mom does act out in jealousy or something like that, we can try to empathize. i know my mother in law sometimes feels insecure bc she doenst have a husband anymore and it must feel very scary for her. i try to do what i can do make her feel safe and make her feel like im not going to rip her son out of her life. after all that's all that she has left. imagine being alone in life when you get tired more easily, your knees hurt and you can't do things for yourself. we can't relate to this bc we're young and do everything. we also can provide for ourselves as well financially. next, i think you left out for man's motivation to marry back home is that they look here and then give up. my husband's cousin did that. he really wanted to marry someone here but couldn't find anyone. that's not the women's faults or anything but just his kismet. i dont think in his case he felt he 'deserved' someone from there. he wanted someone from here who understood the culture here, would do karate w/ him and other things. im not sure why nome u think women from back home have a better mentality, bc my husbnad has a COMPLETELY different view. He was born and raised there and he REFUSED to marry someone from there. And he gets into arguments w/ his mom today about having his brother marry someone from there. He feels women there will try to split the family, cause nakhra, be jealous and etc. I guess everyone has their stereotypes and generalizations. His mom was scared to meet me as well cuz she heard about the stories about ABCD women. I have a funny story actually, my MIL had dinner in pakistan w/ some of her friends. They all were complaining about their DILs. One said she got kicked out fo the house by her DIL and another one said she's very mean. They all looked to my MIL and she's like oh mine is nice...All of theirs jaws dropped. While I definitely had some adjusting to do w/ her I think she gave me probably more of a compliment than i deserved...Put the point is , I think Pakistani women from there can cause just as much drama as someone from here. You just have to pick the right one.
November 12, 2007 1:41pm
Well obviously, dating is a short term committment that you can easily get out of. Marriage is not. I'm assuming people who "test" the waters for possible marriage committment by dating to find suitable partner, go back home and get married because their dating failed and they see getting married to someone totally new as a last resort. Another thing is from alot of guys prospective, is that, they are just dating and have told their partner of their intentions not to ever marry them because they are "engaged" back home. I don't know why girls agree to that but suprisingly alot of them do.
November 12, 2007 2:26pm
Peace be upon you, It is less to do with 'dating' and more to do with 'rights'. The environment most Pakistanis in Pakistan grow up in is one in which a woman, despite her level of education, is expected to adopt a housewife like attitude where the 'husband is always right'. Whereas a girl in the US/UK is generally, though not always more aware of her rights and while the vast majority that I know would love nothing more than being a good wife to a good husband, the perception that girls 'here' are too 'free' or too 'liberated' while not necessarily true, creates misperceptions. The problem is worsened when the vast majority of girls here are good, they do have a good balance between 'East' and 'West', as their parents gave them the best of both value sets. Sadly in protecting their daughters they forgot to protect their sons allowing the vast majority of them to do as they please. And it is that attitude which enables the boys to get away with whatever they like then go 'back home' and find for themselves a girl. In fact the Quran tells us that pure boys are for pure girls (and vice versa) and impure boys are for impure girls (and vice versa), and may Allah Almighty grant us the blessings of the partner which is better for all of us who are not married, and increase the peace and happiness between those who are already married, amen.
November 12, 2007 3:30pm
I wouldn't peg this off to men only. I know many many muslim girls who do the same, party as they please here under code names while pretending to being the perfect muslim girl...at the end they sponsor that innocent desi man or marry to relocate leaving all their stories behind. Perhaps following the western modo 'What they dont know wont hurt them' Nowadays it goes both ways...whatever the true underlying reason may be.
November 12, 2007 6:13pm
Its easy..they want to do whatever they want to..and then ask for a pure simple girl from Pakistan who can be treated and moulded as they wish. Also, she comes with no family so its convenient for the guy not to deal with inlaws. Basically, typical double standard attitude. Where desi guys are kings and can do no wrong
November 12, 2007 8:32pm
Yup its an easy ticket all right, and whats sad is that the girls they marry are usually good. A lot of guys have told me that its just easier to marry who their parents choose for them from back home. They say they don't want to take the "responsibility" of marrying someone they choose on their own....Now how this makes sense I have no idea!..but this is definitely a very common theme.
November 12, 2007 9:20pm
Salaam Nile Memon, Why are Muslim women dating Muslim men? Just for your information, some of the comments that I have heard from a few non-Muslim men who have dated or "bagged" our sisters is to refer to them as having slept with a "...Muslim b______". I find that distasteful and troublesome especially being a divorcee, a Muslim woman, and possibly wanting to remarry. I agree, sister, that most of the men who do marry women from their homeland do it to appease their families or inner guilt. Personally, I would gladly ship some of these men to marry these poor unsuspecting women (my heart goes out to those women, though). That leaves us women here--what do we do??? As a mom, I worry about bringing up my own sons here in this free culture. As young as they are now, I have had to show my overprotectiveness of my boys from some of these "overripe" little girls! Personally, as a viable woman, temptation is evident but so are the realities. We, as women, should not succumb to any form of zina; Muslim and/or non-Muslim men should continue to respect our beliefs and help protect us from harms of any kind; and as sisters we need to trust in our Rabb to do His part in our lives. Maa'Salaam
November 13, 2007 12:01am
I think Sabbasi has clearly stated good points. However, I would like to add that parents are very much involved with this dirty game as their sons are. Even though they know what their sons been doing they still try to find a girl from back home so she can straighten his life. And specially moms..no matter if their son has been dating yellow, white, brown, black girls she would want a fair, tall, decent, educated, pretty girl from back home for their fat, bald, ugly, or player looking son. Its something that moms feed in their sons head which allows their sons to go out use whoever they can get hands on while knowing that for the marriage part their moms will take care of it and wont disappoint them. And I think same applies for girls too.,,some wild girls here have been married to some way better decent guys backhome,,because their parents thought that the girl is getting out of hand so its good to hook her up with a decent family guy back home where he can straighten her up. In case of guys who play around with girls here knowing they can always go back home and get a tall fair pretty educated girl for marriage. They forget one thing, that they will be fathers of a daughter some day too. And some other guy can do the same to their daughter as they did it to someone's else daughter. Nowadays you dont have to wait to go to hell for your punishment you get it right here in this world with your eyes open. As Choosa mentioned Quran states that pure guys are for pure girls. So if a guy is pure he should only look for his match and If he is looking at the right place InshAllah he will find a pure girl too. Same applies for girls. Its time for muslim girls to realize to be sensible to protect themselves and not to have a guy run over them. As majority of guys have a bad character than girls, girls are left with fewer choices. Its also time for parents to realize that good and bad people are everywhere if here then back home too. When hooking up or knowing a person whats important to know is that if you put this person in a given situation how would he/she react. A girl backhome can be worse than a girl here if she was put into the environment and situation here. And dont think that girls back home are all innocent,, they are much clever and sneaky than bold girls here. They are marrying a guy from here mostly for materialistic reasons. And even they know the guy is a player they are okay with it as they are not really marrying the guy they are marrying his status and citizenship title. Character of a person will only bother another person if thats the most important thing for him and her. Its sad to say in most cases it isnt the most important thing on a persons list while looking for marriage because of other materialistic reasons taking the first few spots. A decent or wild girl here or backhome would be happier with a whole-hearted decent guy here or backhome than with a lifeless emotionless animal here or backhome. In a relationship guy has to be more in love with a girl than a girl in love with a guy and to my knowledge animals dont fall in love. A win-win situation is when both girl and guy are decent and lead their lives under the guidance of Islam.
November 14, 2007 3:40pm
Its everyones right to decide what they want to do with their life. Their unclean past is between them and God, we shouldnt jump to conclusions. Its my 7th year in North America and few months when I tried to find some North America born and raised girl I just didnt find that many serious ones. Take example of this website Naseeb, how many are interested in finding soul mates? Probably 5% or even less. Call it friend, activity partner or something else in the end if a person is getting his/her emotional and/or physical needs met outside marriage then its obvious marriage wont be a high priority item on the list. Other issue is that Muslim community is spread all over, and sometimes people dont want to relocate and its not always easy to find the one you are looking for in your own city. So if you have relatives or friends in your country of origin then why not to give it a try. People who move here from developing countries do their level best to adjust here. I dont know what the failure rate is but lots of men I met here, who married back home, were pretty happy. Forget about Muslim community. I personally know lots of white guys who married outside North America and are very happy. In the end you just need a reasonable person with good family values, thinking mind and desire to work the things out. Cultural interests, food, clothing, sports , music etc are all secondary things and keep changing from time to time.
November 14, 2007 8:29pm
Well well....and have you all heard the tales of Pakistani bred "good girls" who came to America after marriage and go wild, loco, party city!!! This is a trend all too alive. And I think desi guys who do this to other ABCD girls, Deserve Pakistani wives from "back home" like that.
November 14, 2007 11:22pm
Comments for Nomecapone "I think the real reason is, a guy is attracted to a woman who is similar to his mother." If thats the case then while fking around and having sex with random women he was thinking of them as his mother too? bad bad bad "The desi chicks raised here are confused, uncultured, and conceited versus our mom's/aunts/cousins who were confident, cultured, and comforting." The desi chicks you are talking about didnt fall from the skies, they are sisters of such brothers, daughters of such uncles, raised by moms, aunts and cousins you are talking about. And DONT compare moms/aunts/cousins with girls of this era. I am sure dads/uncles werent screwing around back in the old days as muslim guys are now. So in this era desi confused, uncultured and conceited girls are still 1000 times better than desi guys here. "I think white girl's would make better housewives then most of the desi girls raised in this country." Just so you know white guys think the opposite they think desi girls here are the best blend of east and west they become sensible at a very young age and know how to handle both worlds. "And on the flip side of it, why do desi/muslim girls go date white, black, spanish guys throughout HS and college, then come expect some desi/muslim guy to marry them over night?" Coz desi guys are screwing around with white, black, spanish girls throughout HS/college years as they think "muslim women" are hard to bend because of all their nakhras and diginity which you guys whine about and then when girls try to prove you that you mean more than her dignity or herself you leave them abandoned and then whine about her being used and uncultured. In my case I wouldnt want to be with such a double-standard, player-natured, selfish desi guy and his backward thinking family who even after living here since decades are so jahil and two-faced. I would leave them for their low-standard match. To each his own. Geographical location doesnt make up a person its his/her character that does. If you know where diamonds are found, where lilies are found you will get the answer. The families and guys that lucky girls should think about are the ones who welcome them as their daughters not as their daughter-in-laws. Dont forget these double-standard guys and families are going to give you more stress after marriage because of their cheap and sick thinking. So be thankful that you are not getting married to such kinds. Allah definitely has someone worthy and better for you.
November 15, 2007 4:49am
Nomecapone, that was hilarious...albeit a little harsh. That was stand up comedy material though. Look, ladies, now that you're beginning to live in a man's world, and there are role reversals in some matters, and you're enjoying the rights that men have enjoyed for eons, and you're excelling in education and careers mashAllah etc etc etc... Don't you think it's about time you realised that you're just as bad as men? And maybe that's the reason some guys choose to look over to the 'greener pastures'. No one's perfect and maybe they dated everyone because they were actually trying to find a life partner and when they couldn't they went for the 'Go East' philosophy. They are simply trying to find a partner in life with whom they can settle down and live a comfortable respectful life. Everyone has a right to a peaceful respectful life, everyone has that right, and you have to be a fascist to deny that life to a guy just because you feel bitter, or jealous, or hold baseless biased ideas on hypocrisy. Umer M.
November 15, 2007 2:04pm
asslam aliekum what is good for the goose is good for the gander ! its a dog eat dog world and it doesnt taste so good Nomecapone : nice piece funny Umer_M - the grass looks greener on the other side? ws V
November 15, 2007 6:13pm
Everyone keeps arguing and trying to polarize everything into some black and white picture which it will NEVER be. I don't think anyone was trying to male-bash and say all men do this, but the truth of the matter is that this problem DOES exist and we should try to understand the reasons that underlie the situations in which it DOES occur. Part of the reason I think this happens is that muslim men and women get so caught up in misconceptions of each other...you would think we live in the dark ages with only candles to light our way at night when you hear some of them. From my perspective....as a Muslim girl raised in the US I spent my life living decently, pursuing an education while (no kidding) drinking Rooh Afza and eating Shahi Supari with my girlfriends and parents and watching classic movies, respecting my grandparents and extended family, learning and speaking Urdu.....and essentially respecting my culture, my religion and myself. And yet EVERY day I have had to battle against the common misconception that Muslim girls raised in the US are somehow confused, ABCD, loose, or a number of other things just by being raised here. And no one EVER seems to think the same of Muslim guys raised here. Why the double standard? I heard it so much I almost began to believe it MUST be true. Then I traveled the world and visited a majority of the muslim countries around the world. What an eye opener! Muslim girls in the US are just people too...no better and DEFINITELY NO WORSE than Muslim girls anywhere else in the world. People are individuals and you will find good and bad everywhere in the world. In my travels outside the US I have seen muslim teenage girls smoking in public and dressed like Britney Spears, flirting in public (and in private) and talking to their parents in a manner I would have never dared and i've heard of the common underground raves, drug use and hidden alcohol parties that occur in many parts of our muslim world...just as I've ALSO seen plenty of people and families who act in a decent manner and make me proud to know them. What I learned is it doesn't matter where you go....you will find a bell curve of people....some will be to the extremes and most will be in the middle somewhere. It doesn't matter WHERE a person was born...it matters whether they were raised to respect themselves, their religion, their culture AND OTHERS. That can be accomplished by good parenting anywhere in the world. As for muslim men who date muslim girls and then dump her to marry a girl "back home".....while I am sure there are some people ok with just dating for fun (and let's PLEASE not divert the discussion to this.....we already beat this one to death)....I do NOT believe the majority of muslim girls anywhere are looking for that. Because they are naive and good hearted they are often easy unwitting targets for the empty promises of someone who is willing to manipulate them for a good time...guys who promise...."just give me time" or "I want to get to know you more before deciding on marriage..." etc etc....until before they know it they are in a dating relationship they never imagined and wouldn't have accepted. I have seen muslim guys visit the PARENTS of girls I've known and pull the wool over THEIR eyes as well. It is hurtful and painful when this happens to anyone and while you may say they should have never let it happen....well who are you to judge until you've walked a mile in their footsteps? As I see it...a muslim guy who would consider and then USE a fellow muslim girl as an object for dating is NOT someone honorable in the first place and his loss should NOT be mourned. (disclaimer: the same is true of the opposite case...any girl who would similarly use a guy is also not honorable) A great lesson in life is....it goes both ways....and it eventually comes back around.
November 15, 2007 8:05pm
Nomecapone "I think the real reason is, a guy is attracted to a woman who is similar to his mother." If thats the case then while fking around and having sex with random women he was thinking of them as his mother too? bad bad bad "The desi chicks raised here are confused, uncultured, and conceited versus our mom's/aunts/cousins who were confident, cultured, and comforting." The desi chicks you are talking about didnt fall from skies, they are sisters of such brothers, daughters of such uncles, raised by moms, aunts and cousins you are talking about. And DONT compare moms/aunts/cousins with girls of this era. I am sure dads/uncles werent screwing around back in the old days as muslim guys are now. So in this era desi confused, uncultured and conceited girls are still 1000 times better than desi guys here. "I think white girl's would make better housewives then most of the desi girls raised in this country." Just so you know white guys think the opposite they think desi girls here are the best blend of east and west they become sensible at a very young age and know how to handle both worlds. "And on the flip side of it, why do desi/muslim girls go date white, black, spanish guys throughout HS and college, then come expect some desi/muslim guy to marry them over night?" Coz desi guys are screwing around with white, black, spanish girls throughout HS/college years as they think "muslim women" are hard to bend because of all their nakhras and diginity which you guys whine about and then when girls try to prove you that you mean more than her dignity or herself you leave them abandoned and then whine about her being used and uncultured. I wouldnt want to be with such a double-standard, player-natured, selfish desi guy and his backward thinking family who even after living here since decades are so jahil and two-faced. I would leave them for their low-standard match. To each his own. Geographical location doesnt make up a person its his/her character that does. If you know where diamonds are found, where lilies are found you will get the answer. The families and guys that lucky girls should think about are the ones who welcome them as their daughters not as their daughter-in-laws. Dont forget these double-standard guys and families are going to give you more stress after marriage because of their cheap and sick thinking. So be thankful that you are not getting married to such kinds. Allah definitely has someone worthy and better for you.
November 15, 2007 8:05pm
Nomecapone "I think the real reason is, a guy is attracted to a woman who is similar to his mother." If thats the case then while fking around and having sex with random women he was thinking of them as his mother too? bad bad bad "The desi chicks raised here are confused, uncultured, and conceited versus our mom's/aunts/cousins who were confident, cultured, and comforting." The desi chicks you are talking about didnt fall from skies, they are sisters of such brothers, daughters of such uncles, raised by moms, aunts and cousins you are talking about. And DONT compare moms/aunts/cousins with girls of this era. I am sure dads/uncles werent screwing around back in the old days as muslim guys are now. So in this era desi confused, uncultured and conceited girls are still 1000 times better than desi guys here. "I think white girl's would make better housewives then most of the desi girls raised in this country." Just so you know white guys think the opposite they think desi girls here are the best blend of east and west they become sensible at a very young age and know how to handle both worlds. "And on the flip side of it, why do desi/muslim girls go date white, black, spanish guys throughout HS and college, then come expect some desi/muslim guy to marry them over night?" Coz desi guys are screwing around with white, black, spanish girls throughout HS/college years as they think "muslim women" are hard to bend because of all their nakhras and diginity which you guys whine about and then when girls try to prove you that you mean more than her dignity or herself you leave them abandoned and then whine about her being used and uncultured. I wouldnt want to be with such a double-standard, player-natured, selfish desi guy and his backward thinking family who even after living here since decades are so jahil and two-faced. I would leave them for their low-standard match. To each his own. Geographical location doesnt make up a person its his/her character that does. If you know where diamonds are found, where lilies are found you will get the answer. The families and guys that lucky girls should think about are the ones who welcome them as their daughters not as their daughter-in-laws. Dont forget these double-standard guys and families are going to give you more stress after marriage because of their cheap and sick thinking. So be thankful that you are not getting married to such kinds. Allah definitely has someone worthy and better for you.
November 15, 2007 9:49pm
For the record, some of my best friends are so-called "FOB" women. I have nothing against them. But if you want to know why American Muslim men go back to marry...her's why The American guy/girl from back home match works for many reasons. It works for the guy who wants to feel in control, have things his way all the time, who needs lots of validation of his male ego. Fairy tales: People think it is women who buy into fairy tales. But it is men who are really into the idea of being some woman's Prince Charming. What makes a man feel that way more than arriving in "the homeland" and sweeping some young, beautiful maiden off her feet and carrying her off to the U.S.? Position of strength: Men go back to the homeland to marry when they are "well settled" in their lives. These girls didn't see them in the years they were struggling, when they were going through their identity crises, when they were feeling vulnerable. Instead, they enter the marriage from a position of strength. Men don't like it when women have witnessed their vulnerabilities. It is entirely possible that a guy will date a "strong" woman in the U.S. for years during the time he is "making" himself -- then go marry a young woman "back home" once he is in a position of power. Hierarchy: A man wants to feel like the "king" of his castle. If he marries a woman a lot younger than him, he won't feel threatened by her. He can feel like *he* is molding *her* (though, as I've pointed out, a lot of times it is the opposite and the guy remains deluded about being "in control"). Flexibility: a girl from the homeland is so excited and grateful to just be able to come to the U.S. that she doesn't quibble over living in NYC versus West Virgina. He is her ticket to the U.S., to an American passport, out of her father's house -- so she'll follow him whereever he goes. No competition: The girl from there comes here and then starts her education, has to start her career. The man is already settled. The man's career comes first. There is no negotiation, no competition. The girl leaves her entire life behind -- her friends, her family, her lifestyle...and molds herself to her husband's life and environment. Status symbol/trophy wife: Invariably the women who are married from "back home" are beautiful -- a woman a man is proud to show off on his arm. Loyalty: guys from here think that women back home are pure angels who have been "protected" and are waiting just for them. So they think they are marrying a woman who would never/could never even imagine..cheating on them. Better bartering rate: In the U.S. if a man is short, going bald, not terribly accomplished/wealthy, divorced (nothing against it -- but we have to admit it is a cultural taboo), has children..or any combination of the above...he'll have a hard time finding an American Muslim girl who will have him. She'll recognize the he can't give anything she doesn't already have. But in the homeland, his American passport is a huge "asset" and a great bargaining chip. He can get a certain "quality" girl from back home that he can't get here. In exchange, the man places the woman on a pedestal of purity and piety (even if she may have fooled around in Pakistan..she'll play the part of the shy virgin). He wants to believe in the fairy tale of some beautiful princess who is his destiny. It makes him feel like "the man". So the woman gets the adoration and love she craves. He may dote on her, treat her like some delicate flower, protect her. It is in a very paternalistic way. Only the problem is fairy tales is that they are not true. Just like if you kiss a toad, you don't get a prince. Well, girls back home -- as Scrubs pointed out -- come in a full spectrum. There are those that are sweet and genuine and then there are those who are wilder and far more demanding than any girl here. The biggest issue is if the girl sponsors her family. The guy goes from having no in-laws to having to deal with not just "raising" a wife (acclimating her to a new culture) but also her entire family. I've heard men say the really got "stuck" by marrying a girl from abroad that way. I've heard of guys marrying girls, who after marriage -- admit that she was forced into marriage when she was in love with someone else back home. She then divorces the guy and is free to do what she wants. She basically agree to the marriage as a way to get out of her father's house and to become an independent woman. Also, girls from wealthy families back home are quite spoiled -- they don't do their own laundry, they don't scrub toilets, they don't drive cars themselves. In the homeland they assume everything in the U.S. is more glamourous here than there -- they have no idea what they are in for when the come.
November 15, 2007 9:49pm
Thanks for your thoughts.....I considered what you said and have the following response: First off....my comments about Rooh Afza and Supari were tongue-in-cheek as a response to those who suggested that American born girls might not be interested in cricket (I'm a BIG fan BTW), talking about their Chand-Raat adventures, watching old movies, speaking Urdu, etc. I was pointing out that those are misconceptions that go both ways. I think you misunderstood the point. PREFERENCE is one thing....I would never fault someone for marrying whomever they chose....but if you know what your preferences are...then interact with people who meet that criteria and don't waste time with those who don't. Marrying someone of your choosing is fine in Islam.....stepping on other people, deceiving them, and lying to others along the way is NOT. THAT is when it changes from a preference to a PROBLEM. The person who posted the question asked....NOT about why men PREFER one type of woman or from what country or any of that....but rather why men will often date Muslim girls from the US and then dump them and go marry a girl from "back home." If you want to talk about greediness and going with hormones and such....this is a good example...and it is neither fair nor right. Its hurtful to the dumped woman and the woman who marries him who is lied to from the beginning. I DO agree with you that both sides often make bad choices when dating begins and they have to take equal responsibility for that and I think they do. But the world isn't black and white...most guys don't walk up to a girl and say "hey..let's date..."...they pressure them and some people are vulnerable to this. Parents even fall into the trap of allowing it on occasion in the name of "letting them get to know each other better." People need to be respectful of others feelings and these situations wouldn't arise and it wouldn't be a problem. Women are not Sony TV's or Panasonics....I find that statement offensive and I would never stoop to describe a man as such either. I stand by my previous statements: That American Muslim women are a diverse group comprised of good and bad....just as you will find anywhere else in the world among any people. You cannot judge a person or have misconceptions about how they were raised or how they might think based upon where they were born...time and experience will prove you wrong. I didn't say muslim guys don't have challenges to face in this world...I in fact recently sat on a committee meeting to address the issue of muslim men being misportrayed in the media and how that might affect them and cause them to feel disenfranchised in the US. And I feel your pain about this issue. What I said was....no one seems to look at a muslim guy born and/or raised in the US and say he is not humble, has less family values, has less character or honesty than guys from "back home" or that he won't know old movies or drink Rooh Afza or follow cricket or any such nonsense....so if you won't accept this sort of idiotic stereotyping for yourself and your brothers then you are impelled to not accept it for your sisters. As for spoiled women...they (as well as spoiled men) can be found the world round and the US has no monopoly on that. But there are hardworking people the world over too...I certainly was never spoiled...I worked my way through school...even had two jobs at one point, I didn't grow up in a house with a nanny and sleeping till noon....and most of my American born/raised/immigrated muslim women friends would tell you the same. We work hard, for our families, our education, our jobs. AND I have seen MANY women here and the world over stand by their men....support them....push them to pursue their dreams....and achieve happiness. In short...I just don't agree with your point. But that's ok...difference of opinion and perspective is what makes the world go round. You go your way and I'll go mine. As long as neither hurts the other person we'll just chalk it up to PREFERENCE and we don't have a Problem. :-)
November 15, 2007 9:50pm
why so bitter?
November 15, 2007 9:55pm
There are plenty of American guy/FOB girl couples that work out. If it works for them... great..different strokes for different folks. I don't see it as a problem that they guys go back to marry. Good riddance. That mindset is so different from the way I operate that it is not like it is any "loss". People are who they are. They have whatever values, expectations, comfort zone they have. I actually commend a guy who knows what he wants and goes after it. It is a good thing if they are not confused. What bothers me more is the guy who defines a "trophy wife" as a fellow American-born, equally educated, outgoing girl...and then expects that girl to fit into some traditional mold of the docile housewife. If you want to be feel like the dominant male and having things your way -- then be sure you marry someone who can actually do that for you.
November 17, 2007 10:06am
I think we should just base our comments and advice on the question asked by Nile Mr. Nomecapone we are not here to personally attack each other. It is very immature of you to do that I can have a solid rude answer for you too but then what will be the difference between me and you? We are here to present our knowledge, experience and advice according to what we have understood from the topic. Nobody is right or wrong here again it is very selfish of you to just say that you are right the rest are wrong..how sensible does that make you look.. Back to the discussion,,according to what I got out of the question we are talking about a specific group of guys "who date around here however their intentions are to get married back home" Most of the them could already be hooked up back home but still dating here and the girl here could be unaware of his status. My comments only target that group I am not bashing guys in general. There are a billion different situations and possibilities why a western muslim guy will date western muslim girls and marry eastern muslim girl. Not just with muslims it happens almost in every religion and culture, where the forefathers have immigrated to western countries centuries ago but they have roots in a different homeland. Back to the reason, Why? He probably is forced to marry back home due to family pressure, financial crisis, childhood promise could be anything which is not in his control and he dates women here thinking he has the right to be happy with someone he can associate himself with. If thats what he chose then be it. But I have an issue when that guy keeps both the girls in dark and doesnt tell them because of course if they know why would they be with him in the first place. Thats cheating,,he is cheating with 2 types of women at the same time. One who is already dreaming about a married life with him, second who is dreaming about a potential married life with him. This is just one situation out of a billion rest. The correct way: The guy should have just lived with his destiny, why involve another girl in the picture. On the other hand, there can be a girl doing the same with a guy. But the ratio of women doing it over men is fairly low. This has been ongoing since centuries and will continue to happen. I would state it again good or bad-according to society (girls and guys) are everywhere. They come in different shapes, sizes and forms. Allah has created the two genders completely different. He has already implanted a gender seed in you and has given its characteristics accordingly. Now its up to the gender how to shape up his/her character and that defines what he/she is. Thats why Islam has restrictions to help you shape your life in the rightful manner. There are restrictions for women of course if you do anything against it you will be damned. Do note: The word virgin is meant for females not for males. So its a risk you take. Either you stop dating or stop complaining. Because girls cant compete with guys in everything, be it society or religion. FACE THE TRUTH. Either you drink the poison and stay good in eyes of the world or try to compete with guys and lose everything you have even respect. Western girls are more open to dating than eastern girls-different factors involved (Which make the majority of guys here avoid taking the risk, as for the equal sample of girls they pick from here and backhome. Backhome there might be 4/10 not their type in general than here 6/10 not their type in general. A possible solution: Western girls who are looking to get married with the specific group of guys who date here and marry back home either stop dating which will result in not knowing those guys at all- where you are not going to involve yourself in that situation, (and this place one day might become like backhome for those type of guys) OR if you want to take that risk and compete with them (doing which you will end up losing a lot of your self-respect) play it safe, dont let them use you so it doesnt bother you if he says no to marriage-regardless what the reason is. Afterall why would you want to make such a double-standard guy your husband. If you are reserved, the ball is in your court. Gender debate and east vs west debate are ongoing, I dont want to get into it but I just showed points that are related to the topic.
November 15, 2007 10:15pm
Nomecapone is right: Desi men are in love with their mothers. They never transition to an adult relationship with their moms -- they don't engage in honest communication, they keep up an image of perfection, they crave unconditional love and validation. They keep their moms on pedestals of perfection rather than seeing them as flesh and blood women with strengths as well as faults. They just don't want to grow up and face the reality of human relationships or of human nature. Since most desis (men and women actually) never transition from a child-parent relationship to an adult-parent relationship...they never test that parental love. They never learn that as flesh and blood men with human faults -- they are still loveable. So they actually end up feeling insecure and threatened by their female peers in the U.S. They know those women can see through them because those women are just like them. If a man has never trusted his bond with his own mother enough to be honest with her.....to be a real human with faults with her..and do feel confident that his mother will still love the "real" him..then how can he learn to trust a woman who is accomplished, independent..perhaps experienced...how can he trust her to stay loyal to him and love her? Instead, these guys buy into the fairy tale of the perfect, pure girl from back home who will give them the unconditional love that they had with their moms. And the moms are happy too...because they too are in love with their sons (often trapped in loveless marriages..maybe abusive marriages..maybe neglectful..maybe with men who they cannot respect). They need their son to be "perfect" in all the ways their husbands weren't. They raise their sons to play the role of "Prince Charming" for them that they never experienced in their own marriages. Maybe the sons are right to assume that their mothers will not love them if they are anything but the model perfect son (at least play the part...never mind the reality of their lives that they hide from their moms). These women cannot tolerate being disappointed again. They've often spent their lives chained to bad marriages -- they got their reward in having a son to mold as they pleased. They desperately *need* the son to be perfect for them..to be "good" and "devoted" sons. And since they are channeling all the love that should have gone towards a husband towards their sons, these women don't want some independent woman who will "steal" their sons away from them. They much prefer a girl from back home who these moms perceive to be "moldable" and docile..so the mother can keep her power base intact. And girls from back home are well versed in this dynamic. They know how to work with it. They know how to deal with it. They usually dont' engage in open confrontation. They just quietly establish themselves in the husband's life and win him over little by little. Desi men like to feel in control -- but they are actually used to being bullied by women. They go from being bullied by their mothers to being bullied by their wives. The mother-in-law's fears are justified. The traditional daughter-in-law really is just biding her time until she gets to replace the mother-in-law in the position of power in her husband's life.
November 16, 2007 12:09am
your following comments were directed at me. .............First off....my comments about Rooh Afza and Supari were tongue-in-cheek as a response to those who suggested that American born girls might not be interested in cricket (I'm a BIG fan BTW), talking about their Chand-Raat adventures, watching old movies, speaking Urdu, etc. I was pointing out that those are misconceptions that go both ways.................. I dont know how you read a very innocuous explanation as an attack on American born girls. I sense a lot of bitterness on your end. The point I made works both ways. An American born Muslim guy or girl would ALSO prefer someone born and raised there who can appreciate and enjoy the culture. Peace!!
November 16, 2007 4:43am
Nothing like a classic gender generalization to bring the resident man-haters out of their batcaves. First off, is this really true? Nobody I have ever known (within second generation desis) has ever voiced a preference to go "back home" to find themselves a virgin wife after a youth of debauchery. Nobody. Not me, and not anybody I have ever known. If anything, most of my brethren find it concerning with the possible compatibility issues and such. So I think this is just yet another canard perpetuated by the bitter desi community about us slimy, evil desi men. And nobody would be making these poor desi spouses dive into a potentially bad relationship either. Do your homework, and you'll be fine. It's incumbent upon the poor desi spouse to prevent getting fleeced. And finally, to all those man-haters out there: All your stories about how men have wronged you or your friends, how about you guys show some accountability? Yeah, it sucks that someone unscrupulous took advantage. But nobody takes advantage of you unless you allow it. And you (or your friends) allowed it.
November 16, 2007 5:32am
Umber - Why are you posting like crazy on this page? Were you "wronged" by a desi guy? Well considering you are 31 and still single; I am sure you feel bitter since neither american born nor the "FOBS" are taking you.
November 16, 2007 10:20am
People have the right to choose their partners from wherever they want. I have no right to tell others what they need to do with their lives. Yet, I have made certain observations about some (I am saying some not all) Muslim men and their families in the United States that are not very positive. I see too much hypocrisy and too many conditions where they expect way too much from their future wives. It is usually the mothers who want their sons to import wives and the sons just go with their mothers decisions. I have noticed too that many of these men want educated, career-oriented, tall, very beautiful, young women who can also cook and clean for them. They themselves are not the best of character and morals, but expect more from their wives. Most educated American-Muslim women stand up for their rights and dont want to be exploited by men and their families. This can be seen as a threat and fear. Anyone who has read history has seen how much women have progressed in the past 100 years. To some men, this is seen as a threat. They themselves have not evolved beyond the caveman years where they look for young beautiful women primarily to produce children and cook and clean. They have not evolved to love someone unconditionally and to respect someone for their intellect and personality. How many Muslim mens mothers even mention a prospective wifes personality in their criteria? Do they even care what their future daughter in law has read, if she has good values, or if they can discuss politics? In most cases, they dont. To summarize, some Muslim men and their mothers have not changed much. These men have done whatever they want in their young lives and choose to import wives (similar to mail-order wives). However, there are a few Muslim men who are educated, cultured, have good character, and do stand up for their rights and for other women. These men look for someone they can relate to and there are definitely a few of them (but very few). There are a few American-Muslim women with loose morals who do whatever they want, but there are also many American-Muslim women who are educated, beautiful, good morals, character, personality, and cannot find good Muslim men with good morals who can respect them for who they are(instead of whether they are over 57 or can cook good chicken biryani). My suggestion (directed to men) is to see what your options are and choose what you want in life if you want someone to just cook and clean for you and become a second mother to you, then go for it. On the other hand, if you want someone you can relate to along with someone with a personality and maybe a sense of humor you may need to get to know someone instead of importing. Its your choice.
November 16, 2007 10:53am
This is the best journal by far. Jerry, Jerry, Jerry... Umer M.
November 16, 2007 12:10pm
Even though you did not choose the best possible words, phrases to express your opinion you are right on the money. Anyone, can learn a lot from what you had to say. May Allah bless you. Ameen.
November 16, 2007 12:35pm
Thanks....Sabbasi seems to have gotten the point.....Nomecapone....I am sad to say that you won't get the point until some guy comes to insult your sister or your cousin or such. Women here aren't bashing all men by discussing this issue...so men shouldn't respond by bashing all women. That's just juvenile and it won't help any of us become more educated and better people. This isn't us against them....it's us together in this world and until people start treating each other with decency and respect....these kinds of things will happen. And no matter how you try to spin it...it's still wrong. And Allah knows best.
November 16, 2007 12:37pm
Rather than just going back and forth like this, how about trying to develop an understanding of each other. Nome, you said that it's garbage that women are vulnerable and pressured. Unfortunately it's not garbage. I really wish it was. I wish women's nature were different. The reality is when a guy tells her how beautiful she is and how special she is, she falls for it. She believes it and after that she will do ANYTHING to keep that going. Then when it's too late she realizes what a fool she was for falling for it. We already beat ourselves up for our past mistakes. We already feel like garbage about it. We already are a mess over it. We know we messed up, we know God will punish us. We know we may be damned to hell for it. We already know it. What I would kindly ask is while we have ownership in our mistakes that the men take the ownership also. Why not all of us band together and help protect each other from these sins and getting hurt?
November 16, 2007 12:38pm
Aliya06 My comments were not bitter....I am equally within my right here to argue that your innocuous explanation is in fact likely to be a misconception in many cases.
November 16, 2007 12:48pm
I have known it to happen before...not to me personally because I've been lucky but to enough people I've known over the years that it is sad. I knew a friend many years back who met a guy through close friends at a dinner and he professed to want to meet her....she did things decently and he visited her parents and even sat with her father and said he wanted to marry her. A month later he went to Pakistan, sent ME an email asking me to tell her that regretfully he got engaged and would marry someone else. I respectfully told him to be a man and tell her himself. You can imagine her heartbreak as well as her parents. I thought surely this is a rare occurrence until similar things happened to more decent, well mannered girls than I can recall over the ensuing years. Now I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and suggest that this is the right way for anyone to behave. When it happens to your loved one or friend or relative then perhaps your eyes will be opened...sadly too late. I don't think this discussion or anyone elses opinions here amounts to being a man-hater...I've in fact been very balanced in my postings to point out that everyone is acountable for their actions. I think this naseeb discussion has degenerated into the usual naseeb style juvenile bashing.....I'm only in this if people want to engage in real discussion...peace out!
November 16, 2007 12:54pm
I never said women from back home were weak or not educated. I also never said that my answers apply to all men. This question asks about men who date around here and then go back to marry. My answers apply to them and their families -- not to men in general. It also does not apply to mothers-in-law in general either. It applies to mothers-in-law who are very aware of wanting to preserve control and power. This seems to be most common among women who are in unhappy marriages. Instead, I'm just describing a power dynamic. The reality is that when a woman leaves her home, family, friends and is transported to a new country where her husband and his family are already settled -- she is not in a position of power. That is exactly why these marriages work for guys who want exactly that in a woman. They want to be in control and this situation gives them control. Of course women back home are smart, educated, savvy, etc. But even if a woman is a doctor or a lawyer or a PhD from the homeland -- she has to requalify here, start from scratch in terms of career. So her career is not in competition with her husband's. There is none of the negotiation that happens between two American Muslims -- where one has to agree to move/adjust to the other's life. Women here already are in degree programs, already have jobs, already are settled. Women from back home are agreeing by default to step into a guy's existing life. That is the nature of the marriage. It has nothing to do with her inner strength or personality. If anything, the guy might want an educated, smart woman -- but one he has under his control. The only way to get that is to import a bride. And it works because the woman gets something out of it too. Her family was not going to send her to the U.S. on her own. She had to marry a man from the U.S. to get here. So, the "barter" works. The woman gets the coveted blue passport through the guy and gets to move to the U.S. But women here already have lives of their own. There is very little a guy can really "do" for them. Guys don't like to feel useless. They want to feel "needed" by the women in their lives. They need validation. And to know that a woman does not really "need" you, to know that a woman can do just fine without you...threatens the egos of certain men. These women are also versed in the "old world" ways of womanhood -- where women don't make overt shows of empowerment...rather they play the role that they know flatters a man's ego..and manipulate a man without his realizing it. The man is secure in the idea that he's in control (how the relationship starts off) and he never really notices when his wife from back home starts controlling him in subtle, nonconfrontational ways. Actually, my point is that women from the homeland are far more savvy than their American counterparts. Men complain that women play games. But many men actually *like* it when women play the games that flatter their ego. These men want women to do whatever it takes to always make them feel good -- they don't want honesty or direct communication.
November 16, 2007 1:11pm
The issue is a matter of the relative worth of two people coming to the bargaining table of marriage. An American man who is fat, balding, old..or whatever other undesirable "biodata" issues he may have...he offers the girl from back home something of value -- a way to get to America. The girl in turn brings beauty. She may or may not be educated, well-bred, wealthy, etc.... But she first and foremost will be beautiful -- by desi standards. Traditionally -- that has always been the trade off. Women marry to obtain power through their husbands. Men marry women for their beauty and perhaps family alliances. I'm not saying every man who goes back home is one who can't "get" a girl here. Often they are chosing the power dynamic of the importated bride. The American-Muslim girl already has the life that she wants to live -- she can support herself, she has a full social life, she has family support, she can travel on her own, etc. So a man has to bring something other than an American passort to the table to entice her. If that makes her "conceited"...then so be it.
November 16, 2007 1:21pm
Scrubs, you don't need to explain yourself to anyone. Nomencapone is just defensive because the question exposed his game and he's feeling guilty. And nobody puts baby in the corner!!!
November 16, 2007 1:32pm
"No one takes advantage of you unless you allow it" True. But then you wonder why women who have either heard of or themselves experienced (likely both) negative situations with guys are guarded? You can't tell women to protect themselves and then wonder why those same women aren't open and trusting. The reality is that many desi guys don't just play girls but also play those girls' parents. What is a desi girl to do? If a guy tries to win you over every time there is a potential ristha -- going as far to fly across the country to meet your parents...what is a girl to think? If you do things the "right"/traditional way -- involving parents..you'd think you are taking the necessary protection. Instead, certain guys are comfortable lying to a girl's parents as well. And sadly, a few bad apples DO spoil the barrel. There is that saying in Urdu: Dood ka jala matta phook kur pitha hai or "The one burnt by milk blows on his yogurt drink before drinking it" -- it is a natural human response to protect oneself after an injury. And there are bad apples in the female barrel too. I've seen guys "go bad" after they've encountered a bad female apple. They then justify punishing all women for the sins of a single one. It really ends up being a self-perpetuating cycle. By the way..the "uncultured" American raised girl crackes me up. Whenever I went back to Pakistan...people were so shocked that I wore a dopatta better than then most desi girls, had better Urdu vocab than the locals (the accent and grammar is another matter), knew more Urdu saying, and generally blended in so well that until they heard my accent..had no idea I was from the U.S. The most aggressively American desis I've met are those who grew up in Pakistan (not all of them..the majority are genuine) and who spent their lives trying to pretend they were in NYC instead of Karachi or Islamabad.
November 16, 2007 1:45pm
...for comments such as the one below. I really didn't want to get into this debate, because, well, I think this "issue" as you call it exists in EVERY single community in the U.S.-be it desi, or Russian, or Ecuadorian. Going "back-home" for a spouse is not an unusual thing, and I really wish people stop beating around THIS bush as well. It works for some for VARIETY of reasons; and doesn't work for others. As Nome said, it's all about preferences. Now, I do agree with most of what Nome said, and I was especially touched by the comment about respecting one's mother (my mom always said that it is good to see how a man treats his mother/sister to learn how he will treat you). However, I too wanted to ask (as you ask about taking responsibility for one's actions in your recent journal): is there any way to work on the psyche of men in a society so they cease the behavior they have been displaying? Is there ANY way to make every man live up to his words? And when they do, not to "screw it up" for themselves and blame a woman. I was once told a broke a man's heart. I, literally, almost passed out when I heard it, for I never pictured myself breaking anyone's heart-all I wanted as a little girl (and all I want now) is a man who loves me, who will stand by me just like I stand by him and maintain sanity no matter how harsh life may be. So, Nome and others, the man who said it DID live up to his words-he did propose marriage, bought a ring, sweared to move out of his dad's apartment and get us a "nest"...And then he got into a fight with his father almost putting a fist through his skull, and when I tried to interfere, pushed me so hard I flew across the room and landed on a side of my head. May I ask how then, when I returned the ring and "cancelled" the engagement out of fear I may be killed long before my wedding day was I to upset my future husband in any shape or form, how was I the one to break this man's heart? Why wasn't he the one to admit he needed help, and why wasn't he the one to say: "no, I can not care for you and stand by you as I am not mentally fit to do that. May you find a better man". Why was a small, not yet 20 year-old woman was blamed for the end of this relationship, when she gave everything to that man? It's not so much about falling, but most of all about trusting, which many of us do unconditionally once we're in love. Call it a woman's thing, call it whatever you want-we have every right to take man's words as they are. Or would you rather have women on this planet not trusting a single soul, except, may be, their father? It's already happening, as many of us choose to be single rather than 'screwed over'...So again, it is only OUR fault, or are there two parts to the equation?
November 16, 2007 1:54pm
I misinterpreted what you said nome. i thought you meant that it's garbage that women are vulnerable. i totally agree that both are. i've seen men destroyed by women who said they would marry them but then turn around, dump them and marry a doctor chosen by mommy and daddy. so it does go both ways. men have been hurt by promises as well as women. that's true that we need to have the men answer these questions, but as we can see, women talk more than men and a lot of times men don't really share their true feelings. part of it probably is our fault bc we need to listen more and be more patient and less defensive as well. the other part is men need to open up more and let us know.
November 16, 2007 2:06pm
but I think we have some really interesting potential love connections developing right here! The way you guys love to argue so passionately with each other its like you're already married! Might not be a bad idea... Think about it.. ..your lives would never be boring thats for sure!
November 16, 2007 2:22pm
There is nothing wrong with loving one's mother and paying her respect. The Quran clearly states that a mother is the most deserving of respect of all people on this earth. My point is this: Different people have rights over you and you have to keep those rights in balance. I think the hardest thing for Muslim men is that Rasulallah (pbuh) did not have any parents around when he married. So we have no examples from his life of how he balanced the rights of his mother and the rights of his wife(wives). Above all, Rasullallah (pbuh) was a fair man. Would he have said to his wife as some desi men say to theirs "NO matter what my mom does or says, I'll always expect *you* to be the one to apologize" ?(True statement by a potential rishta) I obviously do not know the answer to that -- but I suspect he'd have some fair solution. The problem with most PEOPLE -- desi men included -- is that they are too dependent on validation to be wiling to ever feel "bad" and to say "no" -- in the case of the desi man this is especially of the mother. We are all egomaniacs in the end -- we tend to do what makes us feel good about ourselves. Some people feel good about themselves when they do something that is "moral" and "right" but don't think about whether that action has not so right consequences on others. Life is full of competing demands (do I answer this call or do I keep working? Do I go out to eat or to the gym?). The nature of being an adult is that your life gets complicated and your relationships make competing demands on you. We have limited time and resources. We can't be everything to everyone all the time. Some people handle those trade offs with grace and keep things in balance. Others figure out what they can get away with with whom -- and treat some pepole well and others poorly. Often, the bigger "bully" wins. And there is no better way to "bully" someone than to play the victim and to manipulate through guilt. Desi women are masters of this particular trick. In the case of the desi man, any time there are competing rights -- the mother will win out every time. Don't get me wrong..some desi men treat their mothers horribly. They may take for granted the unconditional love they get from their moms. That is absolutely wrong as well. Nomecapone: It is wrong what happened to your mother. No human -- male or female..of any race -- should be disrespected, hurt, or humilated. What follows is in NO way related to any specific woman. It is a classic phenomenon in psychology that the one who is abused often turns into an abuser. That is true if you look at certain countries whose people in their recent past suffered horrific events during WWII but now oppress another people. It is true when you look at child abusers -- they often had troubled childhoods of their own. Therefore, I do see certain women who have suffered in their own marriages (beaten, abandonned, neglected, emotionally abused) -- develop a sense of entitlement. Their sons may step up to the plate and be the man that the father never was -- respectful, supportive, caring, generous, etc. But that is the problem -- when a woman relies on her son to be what she should have had in a husband. Then by default, whether she consciously realizes it or not, the son's marriage to "another woman" is a threat to her. When people feel threatened...most people will last out at the source of the threat -- the competition. And in the case of a mother where the son is aware how she "suffered" -- either she was outright abused or else she just quitely suffered through a bad marriage.... that guy is going to feel such tremendous guilt at *ever* disappointing his mom in *any* way -- that he will not be able to create balance bewteen the rights of his mother over him and the rights of his wife over him. Sometimes the mother herself really is a sweet woman who is not out to "get" her daughter-in-law. The problem actually lies with the guy and not the mom sometimes. Men who have become the "heros" for their mothers are very appealing -- you see in action the devotion, love, respect, caring, reliability, etc -- all very admirable and all excellent qualities in a marriage. The thing is that a man may give that to his mom without ever offering that to his wife. They get an ego boost out of being the "hero" to the "victim/saint" that is their mom that cannot be achieved with a flesh and blood woman who is a wife. The guilt a man feels from ever saying "no" to a mom will never be compensated by feeling good about honoring his wife's rights over him. The guy who plays husband AND son to a woman does not then apply the Islamic rules of equity among multiple wives. The woman who marries a man who is essentially already married to his mother is always going to be the "second wife" but without the Islamic protection of actually being in a polygamous marriage. The guy is so used to playing husband to the mom..that he doesn't realize that his role goes beyond that of a son..and he doesn't think about his need to keep his responsibilites in balance. This may be offensive to some people. I apologize. But this is a psychological reality for a lot of desi families. Which is why one good criteria is that a guy's parents have a good relationship with each other. If a man has grown up seeing a woman respected and loved -- in the role of a wife, mother, daughter-in-law...then that man has a template of a good marriage and has a role model in his own father of an excellent husband. He will then respect his mother AND his wife. The natural order of things will be preserved. The mother will first and foremost have her husband as her source of support. That will let the son be able to be a son and not play both son and husband to the mother.
November 16, 2007 2:38pm
You are absolutely right about confused, two faced, double standared desi guys like NOMECAPONE. Us American Raised girls are definitely the best blend of East and West. MashAllah!
November 16, 2007 6:08pm
Men who wish they can get a woman here but can't go back home to get one.
November 16, 2007 8:41pm
There really isn't a single type of guy who goes back to the homeland to marry. I don't know that gender makes that much of a difference in being able to answer this question. I don't think I'm qualified to speak for all womankind or all American Muslim girls. So one man's explanation of the phenomenon reflects just his own viewpoint -- not the viewpoint of all men. Some guys are "good guys" here and don't date around and they feel that they "deserve" a perfect girl. They get disenchanted with the idea of having to compromise to get a girl here, so they go back home where the power structure is more to their liking. They buy into the idea of "perfect womanhood" that can only be found in the homeland supposedly. Some guys are players. These come in different forms as well. There is the guy who has no respect for women and just treats them all badly. He may want a woman who will be raised in a culture where women are taught to turn a blind eye and to stay in the marriage no matter what. He may think he can continue to play around and cheat on a "nice" girl he brings form back home. Or a guy may have a dichotomous way of thinking -- there are "nice" girls and then there are sl*ts. He feels that girls here are the latter and he can do whatever he wants with impunity. And he "saves" his good behavior only for a woman he thinks "deserves" respect -- a girl from back home. There is the guy who is greedy for every possible experience. He may want to play around, maybe try kinky things he can't do with a "nice" wife material type, sleep with lots of women. He ultimately goes back home to marry a "nice" girl that his mother picks out for him -- and he fully knows he will do this and accepts that for himself. But he puts marriage off until the very last minute. He tries sow all his wild oats before then. He may then fully settle into the role of the "nice desi husband" once he's "caught". There are probably other types I am missing. The common theme in all of these scenarios is that the guy...by virtue of already being settled in the U.S. and bringing a girl from back home to a new country -- the power dynamic is in his favor. He is in control. He doesn't have to compete or compromise on the usual things couples have to negotiate when they try to combine their lives. Instead, the woman just steps into his life.
January 8, 2008 3:39pm
Assalam-u-Alaikum. While I was out looking for a well educated girl in US My objective was to understand her (only by talking with her) and know her and her family better This is what I encountered Most of these ABCD/Saudi girls I had met on naseeb (Girls from family promoting Urdu Poetry in US, Hijabis, Islamic Centre leads, and normal looking girls with Pakistani family background) wanted to do one of the following: 1. Girl A: Wanted to go to an all expense paid vacation with me before marriage, (while she would have told her parents that she has gone on an Islamic Seminar). 2. Girl B: Wanted to go dancing in clubs every weekend. She said she did not drink just wanted to dance in a club/bar. 3. Girl C: Wanted to come and stay at my place (overnight). 4. Girl D: Tried to hide from me their promiscuous past where they did haram with guys in the past. 5. Girl F: Try to intimidate me that it is difficult to find a balanced Muslim girl in US to marry so just see the next girl and get married to even without understanding who/what she is. It has been a shocking experience and revelation Mostly, these girls are totally different than what they project they are and you can know them after talking with them for sometime (A few of them even wear hijab which is such a shock and awe) So, I decided to go and marry a cultured, and educated girl from back home I am shocked to see the ABCD girls here in US so ready to do haram with guys in the name of dating/courtship I always though dating meant we only talk no matter how many years it takes and sex is something we do ONLY after marriage MashaAllah I came out clean from these experiences as I left these girls to the mercy of Allah May Allah bless all the so-called Muslim ABCD girls so that they all find an honest Muslim man as their mate and keep them away from the ways and temptations of Shaitan. Ameen.
February 13, 2008 5:49am
Surprisingly, a GUY sent me this: 'What makes men chase women they have no intention of marrying? The same urge that makes dogs chase cars they have no intention of driving' lol! Seriously, gettin flustered over this topic(though nice to hear opinions)is a waste of time, especially if you believe that Allah has chosen a partner for us already & that we may be totally unaware of this - so even if a guy has dated thousands of women, even he doesn't know the one he'll end up with.. same goes for the girl..so have a lil faith & just don't bother with what men do cos they are just 'made' like that! :)